Talk:Minohtar

Should this page not be in Category of House of Anarion.--Shivam (Talk /Contribs/Edits) 15:39, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

A sister-son of the King would be of a different house, unless the sister's husband was also of the House of Anárion (cf. Éomer's descent from Brego). Minohtar should not be listed as a member in the infobox nor should he be in that category since we have no indication of the identity of his father. --Mord 03:40, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Would the same then not be true of Fréaláf Hildeson, Soronto, and the Lords of Andúnië? As in, by this reasoning, Fréaláf is not of the House of Eorl, and Soronto and the Lords of Andúnië are not of the House of Elros. --Quirinius 09:22, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, if we apply this logic then Lords of Andúnië won't be members of House of Elros. I think we should include Minhotar in House of Anarion because if he would have survived the war, he was going to be king.--Shivam (Talk /Contribs/Edits) 09:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

So then to what house Elendil's ancestral lineage belonged? 'House of Valandil' or 'House of Andúnië'? --Ar-Zigûr 10:18, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I think both are almost same thing, Valandil was son of Elatan of Andúnië so either you say House of Andúnië or House of Valandil, they are same. Also if J.R.R. Tolkien has written that Elendil was of the line of Elros then he is a member of House of Elros.--Shivam (Talk /Contribs/Edits) 14:44, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

(resetting the indents since I'm replying to everything above since my last edit) As far as I know - though I am always open to correction - in the English and broader Western European context, a person is of their father's house. Regarding the cases Quirinius brought up:

• Fréaláf is the tricky one out of these because he and all his descendants are named as members of the House of Eorl, but we have no idea who his father was. Either JRRT was drawing on an Anglo-Saxon tradition related to family/kinship that I'm not aware of that would modify the English usage I'm familiar with, or we have to assume that Fréaláf's father was of the House of Eorl (as Éomund was).
• Soronto's grandfather Hatholdir was described in UT as a "descendant of the House of Hador", suggesting he descended from Hador in the female line somewhere and not from Elros, since one would expect JRRT to have described him as such if he were. This would not have prevented Soronto from becoming the King's Heir under the "new law" of Tar-Aldarion either with or without the provision that the King's Heir must marry within the Line of Elros, because his mother Ailinel could never have been the King's Heir. We have no evidence that Soronto was of the House of Elros and circumstantial evidence that he was not. It seems that the Sceptre was in real danger of passing from the House of Elros if Ancalimë hadn't ultimately bent to her father's will.
• The Lords of Andúnië are never described explicitly as part of the House or Line of Elros that I can find in searching my pdfs of UT, Silm, and LOTR. They are spoken of both as the "house" (lowercase) and "House" (uppercase) in various sources "of the Lords of Andúnië". This is the only formulation I've found JRRT to use; though "House of Valandil" and "House of Elatan" would both be accurate strictly speaking, they would technically be non-canon. I think JRRT opted to consistently use the formulation "House of the Lords of Andúnië" because the title was established for the sake of its female founder Silmariën, but that's just speculation. Anyway, in Silm JRRT speaks of the "house of the Lords of Andúnië" separately from the "House of Elros" ("for though they remained loyal indeed to the King and the House of Elros, they wished to keep the friendship of the Eldar"). This quote doesn't necessarily mean they are separate, but JRRT went out of his way to establish a distinction. I don't think he considered the House of the Lords of Andúnië to be part of the House of Elros.

Regarding Shivam's comment about Elendil, I don't believe JRRT ever stated Elendil to be of the "line of Elros". The closest statement I found was in the Silm index, "Elendil Called the Tall; son of Amandil, last lord of Andúnië in Númenor, descended from Eärendil and Elwing but not of the direct line of the Kings". "Descended from the House of X" is a meaningfully different statement from "Member of the House of X" as genealogy goes. --Mord 10:12, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

I searched books, and I'm sure that I read that Elendil was of line of Elros that why I italicized it to lay emphasis on it. Now for source that Elendil was of line of Elros - if you read the chapter Akallabeth it is mentioned and I quote "The chief among them, to whom they looked for leading and courage in evil days, was Amandil, councillor of the King, and his son Elendil, whose sons were Isildurand Anárion, then young men by the reckoning of Númenor. Amandil and Elendil were great ship-captains; and they were of the line of Elros Tar-Minyatur, though not of the ruling house to whom belonged the crown and the throne in the city of Armenelos."

Now about Fréaláf, it's really tricky as we have no info about his father. So no comment there.

For Soronto, his father is descendant of House of Hador, so I think he related to Kings of Numenor by blood also if no direct male heirs are left he could have been King also he is grandson of king.--Shivam (Talk /Contribs/Edits) 12:20, 1 April 2022 (UTC)