Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/1 July 2012/Transcript
[2012-07-01 20:03:37] <KingAragorn> Welcome to Tolkien Gateway's July 2012 meeting! Mith, Ederchil, Gamling, Hyarion, KingAragorn, and Morgan are in attendance. Pallando may pop in if he can.
[2012-07-01 20:03:59] <KingAragorn> First up is me with "Do we need to have an article for every track from soundtrack albums and every scene of films? "
[2012-07-01 20:04:35] <KingAragorn> Many of these are red-links or stubs, and will never be expanded
[2012-07-01 20:04:52] <Mith> Oh I think they will
[2012-07-01 20:05:00] <Gamling> Would they be of value to our readers?
[2012-07-01 20:05:28] <Ederchil> They only have use for sourcing and disambiguation purposes.
[2012-07-01 20:05:42] <Hyarion> I think for the lyrical content alone they serve a purpose.
[2012-07-01 20:06:06] <Gamling> For movie scenes I imagine what would be of interest would be comparisons between the film and Tolkien's text - a lot of work.
[2012-07-01 20:06:11] <KingAragorn> Yes, I see more reason to keep soundtrack articles with lyrics in
[2012-07-01 20:06:43] <Morgan> Do we have any such good articles? It would be interesting to see an example
[2012-07-01 20:06:59] <Morgan> (I'm thinking both ones)
[2012-07-01 20:07:06] <Mith> No.
[2012-07-01 20:08:47] <KingAragorn> May It Be, Gollum's Song, and Into the West should certainly have articles
[2012-07-01 20:09:04] <KingAragorn> Perhaps we should focus on soundtracks first
[2012-07-01 20:09:09] <Hyarion> well, there are quite a few articles for songs with lyrics in Quenya/etc. that provide translations and might be useful for those trying to determine what the songs are about.
[2012-07-01 20:09:27] <Gamling> King Aragorn, regarding your question, would you advocate removing the stubs or just leaving them to see if they eventually get filled in?
[2012-07-01 20:09:38] <Ederchil> Though we would basically be mirroring Gwaith-i-Phethdain
[2012-07-01 20:09:51] <Mith> Or A Magpie's Nest
[2012-07-01 20:10:29] <KingAragorn> Gamling, I would remove them if we aspire not to expand them
[2012-07-01 20:11:08] <KingAragorn> Indeed, is that something we want to aspire for?
[2012-07-01 20:12:27] <Hyarion> I do, but then I think we all know I tend to favor even the most minor of articles :)
[2012-07-01 20:12:30] <Morgan> Perhaps we don't need to make a "big" decision about removing or keeping; might it not be enough to remove redlinks and stub pages without content? And if someone wants to spend time on creating articles about film scenes or tracks, then that's fine as well.
[2012-07-01 20:12:53] <Mith> I actually agree with Hyarion
[2012-07-01 20:13:28] <Mith> The soundtracks are immensely popular and I think it's only right we have each track listed, just as we have each chapter in The Hobbit.
[2012-07-01 20:13:58] <Hyarion> My worry is, even though A Magpie's Nest and Gwaith-i-Phethdain fill this void for the time being, in 10 years time if we don't include such information, it very well may be lost.
[2012-07-01 20:14:11] <KingAragorn> I'm happy to concede, as long as we think they have a purpose
[2012-07-01 20:14:30] <KingAragorn> Fair point
[2012-07-01 20:14:47] <KingAragorn> It would be go to link to A Magpie's Nest and Gwaith-i-Phethdain, too
[2012-07-01 20:15:07] <Hyarion> agreed.
[2012-07-01 20:15:19] <KingAragorn> *good
[2012-07-01 20:15:35] <Ederchil> Agreed
[2012-07-01 20:15:42] <Gamling> Agreed
[2012-07-01 20:15:45] <Morgan> +1
[2012-07-01 20:16:07] <KingAragorn> One last query: should we have an article for every scene from the animated films?
[2012-07-01 20:16:22] <KingAragorn> I think Ederchil started making them. I don't know if you plan to finish.
[2012-07-01 20:17:13] |<-- Ederchil has left irc.tolkiengateway.net (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[2012-07-01 20:17:21] <Gamling> I'm not a fan of the animated films; if someone else writes these articles it's up to them.
[2012-07-01 20:17:23] <Mith> I don't see why not. Although I shan't be volunteering to watch the films again!
[2012-07-01 20:17:28] <Hyarion> if we can find someone to take charge of those articles, I don't see why not. The tricky part is finding someone though :)
[2012-07-01 20:17:55] <Hyarion> brb
[2012-07-01 20:17:57] <KingAragorn> Indeed
[2012-07-01 20:18:09] -->| ederchil ([email protected]) has joined #Wiki
[2012-07-01 20:18:23] <KingAragorn> What you missed:
[2012-07-01 20:18:26] <KingAragorn> Gamling I'm not a fan of the animated films; if someone else writes these articles it's up to them.
[2012-07-01 20:18:26] <KingAragorn> Mith I don't see why not. Although I shan't be volunteering to watch the films again!
[2012-07-01 20:18:26] <KingAragorn> Hyarion if we can find someone to take charge of those articles, I don't see why not. The tricky part is finding someone though
[2012-07-01 20:18:26] <KingAragorn> Hyarion brb
[2012-07-01 20:18:26] <KingAragorn> KingAragorn Indeed
[2012-07-01 20:19:06] <KingAragorn> So I suppose we plan to keep them all
[2012-07-01 20:19:10] <KingAragorn> Shall we move on?
[2012-07-01 20:19:11] <ederchil> I've got them all on DVD
[2012-07-01 20:19:23] <KingAragorn> Ah
[2012-07-01 20:19:39] <KingAragorn> Would you be the someone who wants to write the articles?
[2012-07-01 20:19:41] <Gamling> +1 to moving on
[2012-07-01 20:19:46] <ederchil> +1
[2012-07-01 20:20:17] <KingAragorn> Oh! OK
[2012-07-01 20:20:36] <KingAragorn> Next is me with "Establish a course of action for images. How should we handle images taken from role-playing games?"
[2012-07-01 20:21:01] <KingAragorn> I'm sure you all know that me and Mith have been contacting artists to get their permission to host their artwork
[2012-07-01 20:21:32] <KingAragorn> What I would like to discuss is what to we do with images by artists who don't reply or whom we can't contact?
[2012-07-01 20:21:44] <KingAragorn> *do we do
[2012-07-01 20:21:50] <Morgan> So it's not only about rpg images?
[2012-07-01 20:22:00] <KingAragorn> We'll come to that
[2012-07-01 20:23:01] <Morgan> How do you mean?
[2012-07-01 20:23:19] <KingAragorn> It's a slightly separate issue
[2012-07-01 20:23:42] <KingAragorn> Do we delete the images of artists we can't contact?
[2012-07-01 20:25:02] <Gamling> If we take an image from a RPG it's like taking a still shot from a movie. We have post several pics from Peter Jackson's films - did we need and get permission to post these?
[2012-07-01 20:25:31] <ederchil> Fair use?
[2012-07-01 20:25:32] <KingAragorn> I doubt that we will be able to get permission from the films
[2012-07-01 20:25:34] <Morgan> The question is if it's fair use to reproduce images from games in articles which feature "critical discussion about the game" (or how we stateit on TG)
[2012-07-01 20:25:44] <KingAragorn> Any we use will have to comply with fair-use law
[2012-07-01 20:27:53] <Mith> Can we park the RPG/film issue for a second and focus on actual artists?
[2012-07-01 20:28:05] <ederchil> Sure
[2012-07-01 20:28:05] <KingAragorn> Yes please
[2012-07-01 20:28:27] <Gamling> Ok
[2012-07-01 20:28:34] <Mith> Some artists are either uncontactable, or don't respond to our emails.
[2012-07-01 20:28:46] <Mith> An example of the later would be Antti Autio.
[2012-07-01 20:29:11] <ederchil> He's featured on quite a lot of articles.
[2012-07-01 20:29:18] <Mith> He is.
[2012-07-01 20:29:42] <Mith> But what is the point of us going to the bother of getting permission from artists to host their artworks if we leave up the artwork of artists who don't give permission?
[2012-07-01 20:29:48] <KingAragorn> Incidentally, I've contacted him on two e-mail addresses so far. There is a third that I could try.
[2012-07-01 20:30:04] <KingAragorn> Yes, that's the point
[2012-07-01 20:30:17] <Mith> It is, as such, with deep regret that I have to conclude that if an artist doesn't respond we have to delete their artwork.
[2012-07-01 20:30:20] <KingAragorn> Because it would obviously be a shame to lose such work
[2012-07-01 20:30:32] <KingAragorn> Yeah
[2012-07-01 20:30:43] <ederchil> Or maybe save everything
[2012-07-01 20:30:50] <ederchil> and reupload when we get permission
[2012-07-01 20:30:52] <Mith> I have contacted Felix Sotomayor about five times on three different emails and on Facebook and he just isn't responding. His non-response could be a tacit "no".
[2012-07-01 20:31:12] <ederchil> For Sotomayor, personally. I don't mind deletion.
[2012-07-01 20:31:25] <Morgan> :) I agree
[2012-07-01 20:31:34] <Mith> I actually like his work.
[2012-07-01 20:31:48] <Mith> But personal life/dislike is irrelevant. We need to establish a principle.
[2012-07-01 20:32:27] <KingAragorn> We can't just throw a fair-use template on things
[2012-07-01 20:32:36] <Mith> Not on artwork, certainly not.
[2012-07-01 20:33:45] <KingAragorn> So what should we do?
[2012-07-01 20:34:29] <Mith> If, within 3 months, an artist doesn't respond, delete their artwork.
[2012-07-01 20:34:40] <Mith> And if we can't contact an artist, we also have to delete.
[2012-07-01 20:34:52] <ederchil> 3 months from now?
[2012-07-01 20:34:55] <Morgan> It depends what fair use entails. For images from games, it might (or might not be?) be fair use. Uploading art work, not appearing in a game, by someone who has not given her/his permission (or hasn't responded), is certainly not fair use.
[2012-07-01 20:34:59] <KingAragorn> From when we contact them
[2012-07-01 20:35:16] <Gamling> Have we had any artists who have asked us to remove their work?
[2012-07-01 20:35:19] <Mith> 3 months from whenever they are contracted.
[2012-07-01 20:35:24] <Mith> I had one, yes.
[2012-07-01 20:35:36] <Mith> Hope Hoover I think it was.
[2012-07-01 20:36:07] <Mith> And I obviously complied.
[2012-07-01 20:37:25] <KingAragorn> Shall we vote on Mith's notion?
[2012-07-01 20:38:14] <ederchil> How many artists still need to be contacted?
[2012-07-01 20:38:48] <KingAragorn> Many
[2012-07-01 20:39:03] <Mith> Loads, it's quite a laborious process
[2012-07-01 20:39:39] <Mith> Finding their contact details, writing to them, they often have questions, then uploading the template to each image, sometimes uploading new images, sometimes deleting individual ones etc etc
[2012-07-01 20:39:58] <Morgan> Isn't this valid for photographs too?
[2012-07-01 20:40:04] <KingAragorn> We have 285 different artists and only a fraction have been contacted
[2012-07-01 20:41:12] <Gamling> If an artist doesn't contact us does that imply no consent or does it imply "I don't care as long as you aren't making a profit from my work"? If the latter, would it be alright to keep using the artwork unless they object?
[2012-07-01 20:41:19] <KingAragorn> Of the major artists we have permission from Alan Lee, John Howe, Ted Nasmith, and Jef Murray
[2012-07-01 20:41:41] <KingAragorn> We can't assume what their intent is
[2012-07-01 20:43:11] <Mith> Yeah, the problem isn't that big artists are ignoring us. It's that little artists don't reply to their emails
[2012-07-01 20:43:44] <KingAragorn> Gamling, I have thought about your point before but, if we accept that, what would be the point in contacting people at all?
[2012-07-01 20:44:32] <ederchil> Going through the list, there are several smaller artists that aren't featured.
[2012-07-01 20:45:13] <KingAragorn> See here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtrDCrepvFsTdHEzQzZ3ME9TUnVTeHNPU25UUjVRRkE
[2012-07-01 20:45:44] <KingAragorn> The orange rows are people who we've contacted, but are awaiting a reply
[2012-07-01 20:45:59] <KingAragorn> The green rows are people who have granted us their permission
[2012-07-01 20:46:56] <KingAragorn> What I've found (and this is why I put this in as part of the same agenda item) is that many are people who have made illustrations for RPGs
[2012-07-01 20:47:14] <KingAragorn> ICE particularly
[2012-07-01 20:47:42] <KingAragorn> Does the artists hold the copyright, or ICE?
[2012-07-01 20:47:50] <ederchil> I think ICE
[2012-07-01 20:47:56] <ederchil> *I'd
[2012-07-01 20:48:15] <Gamling> If we show that we've diligently tried to contact all artists then it shows good faith in using permitted images and removing nonpermitted ones. Then, if an artist objects and we promptly remove that artist's work it shows our willingness to comply with all artists' wishes. Would this be a tenable legal position?
[2012-07-01 20:49:27] <KingAragorn> I'm not sure
[2012-07-01 20:49:51] <Gamling> I just dislike the idea of erasing a lot of images if the artists don't care.
[2012-07-01 20:49:59] <KingAragorn> The only legal way that we can use other people's work is through fair-use
[2012-07-01 20:50:04] <Mith> I wouldn't feel comfortable about it. Copyright infringement is copyright infringement whetehr you're nice about it or not.
[2012-07-01 20:50:24] <Gamling> Sadly that's true.
[2012-07-01 20:51:07] <Gamling> How many images or what percentage might be removed (rough guess)?
[2012-07-01 20:51:39] <KingAragorn> But if we can't contact them and we delete the images, the files remain. They're just hidden from public view. So there is a possibility that they can be restored should we gain the artist's permission in the future.
[2012-07-01 20:52:03] <KingAragorn> Gamling, I couldn't say at this stage
[2012-07-01 20:52:24] <Morgan> http://www.socialmediaexaminer.com/copyright-fair-use-and-how-it-works-for-online-images/
[2012-07-01 20:52:32] <Morgan> "Why are you using the image? If it is Â“Â…for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or researchÂ…Â” youÂ’re on the right track"
[2012-07-01 20:53:26] <KingAragorn> Yes
[2012-07-01 20:54:27] <KingAragorn> Each image would need to be assessed to see if it complies with fair-use. We can't use fair-use on images we don't use, for instance.
[2012-07-01 20:54:56] <Mith> In fact, merely illustrating an article is not enough, I don't think
[2012-07-01 20:55:05] <KingAragorn> Indeed
[2012-07-01 20:55:21] <Mith> I think we need to put the idea that we stick "fair-use" on artwork completely out of our minds.
[2012-07-01 20:55:40] <Mith> We either have permission, or we don't. The question here is what we do when don't.
[2012-07-01 20:57:18] <KingAragorn> Yes
[2012-07-01 20:57:34] <Gamling> Sounds like we better just use images for which we have permission. I guess I better start practicing my artistic skills.
[2012-07-01 20:57:44] <KingAragorn> I think we should now all understand the issues involved
[2012-07-01 20:58:09] <KingAragorn> Gamling, we should have a TG drawing contest!
[2012-07-01 20:58:13] <Mith> Well, actually, I don't see too much disappearing. As you can see from the list only one artist has not answered me (Felix)
[2012-07-01 20:58:31] <KingAragorn> I would like to put Mith's notion to the vote. Should we delete images by artists who do not reply within three months of contacting them? All in favour, say aye. All opposed say no.
[2012-07-01 20:58:40] <KingAragorn> Aye
[2012-07-01 20:58:41] <Mith> Aye
[2012-07-01 20:58:45] <Gamling> Aye
[2012-07-01 20:58:51] <ederchil> Aye
[2012-07-01 20:59:58] <Morgan> If it's from a game, and we use the image in an article with a section on that game, I'd say it appears to be fair use to use the image nevertheless. Otherwise, Aye
[2012-07-01 21:00:25] <KingAragorn> Hyarion?
[2012-07-01 21:01:20] <ederchil> KA, I can't access the spreadsheet anymore.
[2012-07-01 21:01:53] <KingAragorn> Try now
[2012-07-01 21:02:14] <ederchil> yes, works
[2012-07-01 21:02:18] <KingAragorn> Good
[2012-07-01 21:02:40] <KingAragorn> OK, the motion carries (with or without Hyarion's vote, but it would have been nice for a full house)
[2012-07-01 21:03:25] <KingAragorn> OK
[2012-07-01 21:03:32] <KingAragorn> Next is Morgan with "Continue discussion from earlier meeting: how to do with the issue of canon? Should we stop using Template:Disputedcanon and Template:Disputedcanon [sic!]? Should it be up to the reader to decide the canonical status, based on given references (and the text of the article)? "
[2012-07-01 21:04:20] <KingAragorn> See here for what happened at that meeting: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolkien_Gateway:Meetings/1_April_2012
[2012-07-01 21:05:04] <Morgan> For "Template:Disputedcanon [sic!]" read "Template:Noncanon"
[2012-07-01 21:05:22] <Morgan> We also have the canon scale template
[2012-07-01 21:05:33] <ederchil> I don't like the scale.
[2012-07-01 21:05:40] <ederchil> It's a bit subjective.
[2012-07-01 21:06:22] <ederchil> I do like the second option; go all-in and tell our readers to pick out what they don't like.
[2012-07-01 21:06:32] <ederchil> brb
[2012-07-01 21:06:47] <Morgan> I'm with Ederchil here
[2012-07-01 21:07:46] <Mith> I hate the scale
[2012-07-01 21:07:57] <Mith> For years I have complained about it
[2012-07-01 21:08:04] <KingAragorn> (Ederchil, I've given you permission to edit the spreadsheet)
[2012-07-01 21:09:01] <KingAragorn> I support what was agreed at the last meeting
[2012-07-01 21:09:06] <Gamling> The scale template is not often used and seems confusing. I would agree to have it removed.
[2012-07-01 21:09:28] <Mith> I'm not really sure what we need to discuss
[2012-07-01 21:09:40] <Mith> In the last meeting didn't every agree with me? ( :D )
[2012-07-01 21:10:11] <Morgan> So everyone is okay with removing any kind of template indicating canoncial status from articles?
[2012-07-01 21:10:14] <ederchil> back
[2012-07-01 21:10:58] <KingAragorn> Should we keep a non-canon template for concepts which are obviously non-canon?
[2012-07-01 21:11:08] <ederchil> Adaptations, obviously
[2012-07-01 21:11:17] <KingAragorn> Adaptations has its own
[2012-07-01 21:11:21] <Morgan> I'd say, only for adaptations
[2012-07-01 21:11:23] <KingAragorn> I meant thigns like Trotter
[2012-07-01 21:11:38] <ederchil> Concepts that were replaced?
[2012-07-01 21:11:56] <Morgan> There will be grey areas...
[2012-07-01 21:12:10] <KingAragorn> Trotter, I don't think, has a grey area
[2012-07-01 21:12:22] <Gamling> It would be good when the noncanon or disputed templates are removed that some mention of canonicity or sources is put into the article.
[2012-07-01 21:13:10] <Morgan> Certainly
[2012-07-01 21:13:36] <Gamling> Such as, "The character Trotter was an early concept for Strider, later changed in the published story."
[2012-07-01 21:13:50] <Mith> "I have always maintained that a) the canon templates are a pain and b) it is not - and can not - be our place to decide what is canon and what is not. This incurs too many value judgements on our part and opens us up to too much criticism" "Certain things are canonical (Gandalf), certain things are not (Trotter), and there is a lot of grey. The best we can do is admit the situation is grey"...
[2012-07-01 21:13:52] <KingAragorn> Yeah
[2012-07-01 21:13:52] <Mith> ..."For articles in the grey we can have a "Canonicity" section. And that could list, dispassionatelty, arguments for and against "
[2012-07-01 21:14:39] <KingAragorn> Agreed!
[2012-07-01 21:14:43] <Mith> That's what I said three months ago.
[2012-07-01 21:14:44] <Gamling> I agree with Mith.
[2012-07-01 21:14:54] <Gamling> I still agree with Mith.
[2012-07-01 21:15:05] <Mith> I agree with Gamling agreeing with me.
[2012-07-01 21:15:17] <ederchil> +1
[2012-07-01 21:15:17] <KingAragorn> I agree with Nick.
[2012-07-01 21:15:26] <Mith> No one agrees with Nick now.
[2012-07-01 21:15:27] <KingAragorn> No wiat
[2012-07-01 21:15:31] <KingAragorn> I take that back
[2012-07-01 21:16:28] <KingAragorn> Let's vote on it! All in favour say aye, all opposed say no.
[2012-07-01 21:16:32] <KingAragorn> Aye!
[2012-07-01 21:16:38] <ederchil> aye
[2012-07-01 21:16:42] <Mith> Aye
[2012-07-01 21:16:44] <Morgan> Aye
[2012-07-01 21:16:56] <Gamling> Aye
[2012-07-01 21:17:50] <KingAragorn> I assume Hyarion has gone
[2012-07-01 21:18:02] <KingAragorn> The motion carries nonetheless
[2012-07-01 21:18:32] <KingAragorn> Next is me with " How can we get more traffic to TG? How can we get more editors on TG? We need a long strategy and one which will address the likely increase in traffic following the release of the films. "
[2012-07-01 21:20:27] * Mith watches the tumbleweed.
[2012-07-01 21:20:39] <Gamling> I just looked up "Tolkien wiki" on Google and we were 10th on the list. Is there some way we can bump up our visibility?
[2012-07-01 21:21:19] <Mith> If you do a search for Tolkien we are also tenth. I remember when we were 50th
[2012-07-01 21:22:12] <KingAragorn> As an admin on LOTR Wikia I changed its title so it was "Lord of the Rings Wiki" and to remove the word "Tolkien". It has not hindered its rankings, sadly.
[2012-07-01 21:22:20] <KingAragorn> *and removed
[2012-07-01 21:22:26] <KingAragorn> 50th?!
[2012-07-01 21:22:28] <KingAragorn> When was that?
[2012-07-01 21:22:29] <Mith> (I'm happy to report that the Tolkien Society holds he third anf fourth spots)
[2012-07-01 21:23:06] <KingAragorn> I'm sure that Google has become more complicated, but surely more links to TG wouldn't hurt?
[2012-07-01 21:23:17] <Mith> I, of course, do my best to promote the Tolkien Gateway through and via the Tolkien Society
[2012-07-01 21:23:30] <Mith> I keep forgetting to mention it in my many radio minterviews, though....
[2012-07-01 21:24:38] <Mith> (e.g., see the links on each guest of The Return of the Ring: http://www.returnofthering.org/guests.php)
[2012-07-01 21:25:01] <Mith> Yeah, for a while I was going around answering questions on Yahoo! and Answers.com and adding links to TG as a reference
[2012-07-01 21:25:40] <KingAragorn> Do links from higher ranking websites help?
[2012-07-01 21:25:44] <KingAragorn> We need an SEO expert
[2012-07-01 21:27:01] <Gamling> I don't know any.
[2012-07-01 21:27:18] <Mith> Yes I think they do
[2012-07-01 21:28:34] <KingAragorn> Links from the main TS website might help a bit, then
[2012-07-01 21:29:15] <Mith> Are you suggesting I hijack the Tolkien Society's website for private TG gain?!
[2012-07-01 21:29:28] <ederchil> That'd be a bit unethical
[2012-07-01 21:29:28] <KingAragorn> Yes please!
[2012-07-01 21:30:07] <KingAragorn> Seriously, though, when the TS website is redesigned it would be good to link link akin to those on the ROTR website
[2012-07-01 21:30:33] <Gamling> Do we have a page of "Our Favorite Links" to other Tolkien websites? Could we get other sites to do the same for us or are we all sort of in competition and don't want to do this?
[2012-07-01 21:31:26] <KingAragorn> We don't have a page like that, but we do link to lots of different sites
[2012-07-01 21:31:47] <KingAragorn> Be it in External links or as references
[2012-07-01 21:32:03] <Gamling> And do they link to us?
[2012-07-01 21:32:47] <KingAragorn> Lots do
[2012-07-01 21:32:50] <KingAragorn> Many don't
[2012-07-01 21:32:58] <KingAragorn> TORn don't
[2012-07-01 21:33:09] <Hyarion> back.
[2012-07-01 21:33:14] <KingAragorn> LOTR Wikia links to us quite considerably
[2012-07-01 21:33:23] <KingAragorn> LOTR Project links to us
[2012-07-01 21:33:25] <Mith> In my experience we are poorly linked to
[2012-07-01 21:33:25] <Morgan> Yeah, I've noticed that
[2012-07-01 21:33:31] <Morgan> WP too, in some cases
[2012-07-01 21:33:42] <KingAragorn> We could add more WP links
[2012-07-01 21:33:44] <Mith> I may have helped establish the connection from the LOTR Project...
[2012-07-01 21:33:53] <Mith> I add WP links every now and then
[2012-07-01 21:34:16] <Mith> (A connection with my new favourite Swede... :p _
[2012-07-01 21:34:19] <Hyarion> :)
[2012-07-01 21:35:00] <Mith> People still tend to go to EOA over us
[2012-07-01 21:35:05] <Mith> In their list of links
[2012-07-01 21:35:29] <Hyarion> wow, so we decided to remove all images from people we can't contact? (apologies for being behind)
[2012-07-01 21:36:45] <Morgan> Yes
[2012-07-01 21:36:51] <Mith> When the TS website is redesigned I can certainly try to put TG on there. And on my new radio show I will try to remember to give TG a plug
[2012-07-01 21:37:09] <Gamling> But EoA has far fewer articles than us. Maybe their page looks snazzier?
[2012-07-01 21:37:13] <KingAragorn> That would be fantastic
[2012-07-01 21:37:21] <Mith> I do think there is a skin issue.
[2012-07-01 21:37:41] <Mith> For a long time I have said "I will make a new one" and it's not yet happened.
[2012-07-01 21:38:21] <Mith> I am friendly with Middle-earth Network (who own Middle-earth News and Middle-earth Radio) and he offered to help promote TG in some way
[2012-07-01 21:38:46] <Gamling> I vote to increase Mith's TG salary to create a new skin.
[2012-07-01 21:39:04] <Mith> You might not be able to afford me soon! ;)
[2012-07-01 21:40:20] <KingAragorn> :o
[2012-07-01 21:41:05] <Mith> But MEN has 1,700 users and gets quarter of million hits a month
[2012-07-01 21:41:12] <Mith> unique hits.
[2012-07-01 21:41:16] <Mith> Much much bigger than TORn now.
[2012-07-01 21:41:32] <Hyarion> er...
[2012-07-01 21:41:45] <Hyarion> unique hits or unique visitors?
[2012-07-01 21:42:33] <Mith> visitors sorry
[2012-07-01 21:43:01] <Mith> As Mark - the owner - said to me, "We get so much more traffic than TORn it's not even funny."
[2012-07-01 21:43:44] <Hyarion> I hate to be the skeptic, but I would highly doubt that...quarter of a million "hits" sounds far more likely.
[2012-07-01 21:43:53] <Gamling> So what's their secret?
[2012-07-01 21:44:00] <Mith> They do a LOT of stuff
[2012-07-01 21:44:03] <KingAragorn> They control many sites
[2012-07-01 21:44:26] <ederchil> TORn only do movie and games news, it seems.
[2012-07-01 21:44:28] <Mith> I have seen the future, and they are it.
[2012-07-01 21:44:52] <KingAragorn> And it's good that we are on good terms with them
[2012-07-01 21:44:56] <Mith> I've already got the Tolkien Society working with Middle-earth Network on a project I am forbidden from disclosing for legal reasons.
[2012-07-01 21:45:04] <Gamling> One MEN to rule them all...
[2012-07-01 21:45:06] <KingAragorn> I wonder what it could be!
[2012-07-01 21:45:24] <KingAragorn> They do have a good acronym
[2012-07-01 21:45:47] <Mith> When they announce it, you'll know about it.
[2012-07-01 21:46:44] <Hyarion> Facebook Likes, hardly accurate, but: 1,500 vs. 57,000 (MEN vs tORN)
[2012-07-01 21:47:00] <Mith> They admit they aren't really doing Facebook.
[2012-07-01 21:47:12] <KingAragorn> Hyarion, do you like TG on FB?
[2012-07-01 21:47:17] <Mith> You have to remember they have only been around a year, compared to TORn's.... 13?
[2012-07-01 21:47:31] <Hyarion> FB hasn't been around 13 years though :p
[2012-07-01 21:47:41] <Gamling> Is our name "Tolkien Gateway" a hindrance? Do we need to be some other name that's more eye-catching?
[2012-07-01 21:47:43] <Hyarion> KingAragorn, I don't really use FB.
[2012-07-01 21:47:45] <KingAragorn> (TORN annoy me with their FB and Twitter posts)
[2012-07-01 21:47:54] <Mith> I don't know why you're trying to play them down.
[2012-07-01 21:48:17] <Mith> It is a statement of fact that they are A Big Deal and they will be around when TORn is dead and burried.
[2012-07-01 21:48:25] <Hyarion> okay :)
[2012-07-01 21:48:29] <Mith> Notice that TORn now copies MEN's sories.
[2012-07-01 21:48:37] <ederchil> Gamling: "Gateway" doesn't really scream "wiki"
[2012-07-01 21:48:58] <KingAragorn> But as a brand it works well
[2012-07-01 21:49:00] <Mith> TORn are running non-film/game more now than they used to.
[2012-07-01 21:49:43] <Morgan> brb
[2012-07-01 21:50:03] <Mith> I don't think a rebrand would really help.
[2012-07-01 21:50:33] <Mith> Unless you were to change it to "Tolkiepedia"
[2012-07-01 21:50:44] <Mith> (Or even "Tolkiepaedia"_
[2012-07-01 21:50:56] <ederchil> external sites would still link to Gateway
[2012-07-01 21:50:59] <ederchil> so it would hurt SEO
[2012-07-01 21:51:17] <Mith> Indeed, I think we have our name
[2012-07-01 21:51:18] <Gamling> Oh, ok, it was just a thought.
[2012-07-01 21:51:25] <Mith> Kind of have to stick with it
[2012-07-01 21:51:37] <KingAragorn> We need a logo, though
[2012-07-01 21:51:43] <Mith> We do
[2012-07-01 21:51:44] <Mith> I agree with that
[2012-07-01 21:51:49] <KingAragorn> And "Gateway" is something to play with
[2012-07-01 21:51:49] <Mith> I have said that for years
[2012-07-01 21:51:58] <ederchil> A door?
[2012-07-01 21:52:20] <Mith> Do you want me to ask some artists?
[2012-07-01 21:52:24] <Mith> Ted or Jef or Jenny?
[2012-07-01 21:52:26] <Mith> Maybe Anke?
[2012-07-01 21:52:31] <Mith> See if they would design us something.
[2012-07-01 21:52:32] <Gamling> The Gates of Morning with "Tolkien Gateway" printed on the sun.
[2012-07-01 21:52:51] <KingAragorn> We could see if they would be interested
[2012-07-01 21:53:03] <KingAragorn> But thtis would need to be part of the new skin
[2012-07-01 21:53:12] <Mith> Yes
[2012-07-01 21:53:17] <Mith> Who's going to do that?
[2012-07-01 21:53:44] <KingAragorn> Don't know
[2012-07-01 21:53:49] <Gamling> Or a redesign of the west gate of Moria with "Tolkien Gateway" on the arch.
[2012-07-01 21:54:11] <ederchil> I was going to say "not the Doors of Durin"
[2012-07-01 21:54:15] <KingAragorn> I was thinking more of the west gate of Moria, as it's more well known
[2012-07-01 21:54:20] <KingAragorn> Oh!
[2012-07-01 21:54:24] <KingAragorn> Why not?
[2012-07-01 21:54:40] <ederchil> Copyright?
[2012-07-01 21:54:56] <KingAragorn> Artists get away with it
[2012-07-01 21:54:59] <Mith> I think the Doors of Durin is a little cliched
[2012-07-01 21:55:01] <KingAragorn> Make money from it
[2012-07-01 21:55:12] <KingAragorn> Perhaps
[2012-07-01 21:55:24] <Gamling> Or an animated round door that reveals "Tolkien Gateway" in an unnamed Hobbit's house.
[2012-07-01 21:55:53] <KingAragorn> A Hobbit door is a possibility
[2012-07-01 21:56:13] <Hyarion> I always imagined a Palantir
[2012-07-01 21:56:47] <Mith> And I've always thought about the Great Gates of Minas Tirith!
[2012-07-01 21:57:03] <Mith> And, on occasion, the Black Gate
[2012-07-01 21:57:11] <Mith> Are we getting anywhere here?
[2012-07-01 21:57:27] <KingAragorn> Not really
[2012-07-01 21:57:33] <ederchil> Doesn't look like it.
[2012-07-01 21:58:08] <Gamling> Well, other ideas then to increase traffic?
[2012-07-01 21:58:51] <KingAragorn> So far we've only discussed how to increase traffic. How can we get more editors?
[2012-07-01 22:00:04] |<-- Hyarion has left irc.tolkiengateway.net (Ping timeout)
[2012-07-01 22:00:59] <Mith> I love http://www.wikihow.com/Main-Page
[2012-07-01 22:01:06] <Mith> It seems so cool and inviting!
[2012-07-01 22:02:04] -->| Hyarion ([email protected]) has joined #Wiki
[2012-07-01 22:02:21] <KingAragorn> Good layout, but it needs some more colour.
[2012-07-01 22:02:47] <Mith> I like the footer too
[2012-07-01 22:03:08] <Gamling> When I started writing for TG I had to look at a lot of articles to get a feel for how to be an editor. Having a TG-how page might encourage more to editing.
[2012-07-01 22:03:19] <KingAragorn> Yeah
[2012-07-01 22:03:35] <KingAragorn> The help pages could be much more useful to new users
[2012-07-01 22:03:43] <ederchil> Redesign the Help pages?
[2012-07-01 22:03:54] <Gamling> Yes
[2012-07-01 22:04:22] <ederchil> The faq on the main Help page is a bit haphazardly placed.
[2012-07-01 22:04:33] <ederchil> And horribly incomplete
[2012-07-01 22:05:13] <KingAragorn> Yeah
[2012-07-01 22:05:34] <Mith> Yeah
[2012-07-01 22:05:51] <KingAragorn> That's an important project to do
[2012-07-01 22:05:56] <Morgan> Yes, I've been thinking too that it's a big step to become an editor -- there's quite a lot of coding and standards that are needed to be learned.
[2012-07-01 22:06:35] <KingAragorn> Look at Vaire
[2012-07-01 22:07:02] <KingAragorn> S/he needs to constantly ask other users
[2012-07-01 22:08:15] <Mith> Hyarion, can you set up a /beta again, version 1.19 and I start playing around with skins?
[2012-07-01 22:08:30] <Hyarion> good idea, you bet.
[2012-07-01 22:09:02] <Mith> I shall start fliddling around with ideas for skins
[2012-07-01 22:09:28] <Mith> And I shall bump "help pages" to the top of my to-do
[2012-07-01 22:09:53] <KingAragorn> Excellent
[2012-07-01 22:10:46] <Gamling> I think these changes would go a long way to encourage new editors.
[2012-07-01 22:11:23] <KingAragorn> We could also consider advertising TG (funded through donations to TG)
[2012-07-01 22:11:52] |<-- Hyarion has left irc.tolkiengateway.net (Connection reset by peer)
[2012-07-01 22:12:12] <Morgan> Gotta go -- bye
[2012-07-01 22:12:22] <KingAragorn> :o
[2012-07-01 22:12:23] <KingAragorn> Bye!
[2012-07-01 22:12:25] <Gamling> Good bye
[2012-07-01 22:12:26] <ederchil> Yeah, gotta go too.
[2012-07-01 22:12:29] <Mith> Bye Captain Morgan
[2012-07-01 22:12:39] |<-- Morgan has left irc.tolkiengateway.net (Quit: The Bersirc are coming! The Bersirc are coming! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ])
[2012-07-01 22:12:42] |<-- ederchil has left irc.tolkiengateway.net (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[2012-07-01 22:13:18] <KingAragorn> hmm
[2012-07-01 22:13:24] <Mith> Perhaps we should call it a day now?
[2012-07-01 22:13:36] <Gamling> We've made progress.
[2012-07-01 22:14:02] <Gamling> I have an event in an hour and 45 minutes.
[2012-07-01 22:14:08] <KingAragorn> I presume that my advertising idea didn't go down well
[2012-07-01 22:14:35] <Gamling> I was waiting for more discussion since I don't know the parameters.
[2012-07-01 22:15:03] <Mith> I dont' think it would prove that fruitful
[2012-07-01 22:15:03] <KingAragorn> We could pay for sponsored links on Google
[2012-07-01 22:15:07] <Mith> But I'm not against it
[2012-07-01 22:15:18] <Mith> They cost a fortune!
[2012-07-01 22:15:33] <KingAragorn> I've never done it
[2012-07-01 22:15:43] <KingAragorn> But we can advertise in mnay other ways
[2012-07-01 22:16:03] <KingAragorn> Shall we leave Sage's First Age dates discussion?
[2012-07-01 22:16:10] <Gamling> I'm not adverse to advertising.
[2012-07-01 22:16:28] <Gamling> Was Sage going to be here for the discussion?
[2012-07-01 22:16:55] <KingAragorn> He didn't say he was going to attend
[2012-07-01 22:17:16] <Mith> Makes it a challenge
[2012-07-01 22:17:53] <KingAragorn> It's a point to settle at some point
[2012-07-01 22:18:00] <KingAragorn> But it's not urgent
[2012-07-01 22:18:20] <KingAragorn> OK, meeting adjourned. Thanks everyone!