View source for Talk:Fingolfin

==Main image==
One of the other images of Fingolfin should be used at the top. The one selected shows several elves and casual readers will have NO IDEA which one is Fingolfin. One of the depictions of Morgoth/Fingolfin would be more appropriate. Ideas?
[[User:Glorfindel Mk. II|Glorfindel Mk. II]] 18:29, 17 October 2007 (EDT)


Well, the current image is the best and most accurate picture of Fingolfin. In the pictures depicting the duel between Morgoth and Fingolfin, Morgoth occupies most of the picture. And I don't think that the readers will find it too difficult to guess which one is Fingolfin, once they read the article. So I think we should continue using the current image.--[[User:Legolas|Legolas]] 03:36, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

:I agree, it is the best one we have.  Fingolfin occupies the main part of this image, so I don't think it will be too hard to know which one is Fingolfin.  I don't even know if anyone else was supposed to be anyone else important. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 09:55, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

:: Ach. You are both correct that the details of the others are either incorrect or Morgoth is simply too much 'front and center.' Nevertheless, the cartoonish aspects of the image are not too pleasing. Can one of you perhaps go out and do an oil on canvas of Fingolfin? I would but I have little artistic skill.

Cheers [[User:Glorfindel Mk. II|Glorfindel Mk. II]] 16:38, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

==Hair colour==
I don't know which illiterate keeps putting down that Fingolfin is blonde.  It is FINARFIN who is the blonde son of Finwë, not Fingolfin, who is stated to be dark-haired in the works of Tolkien and is represented as such in all art work by legitimate Tolkien artists; i.e. those who are not fanwankers.  Is this some kind of Peter Jackson-like site where people can change anything they want about a character just to suit their whims and completely ignore what the author wrote about said character? {{UnsignedAnon|74.103.197.14}}

:I remember that Fingolfin had black hair (as, indeed, is shown in the picture), but I couldn't find a reference for it in the Silmarilion (I only did a quick search). Do you where is stated that Fingolfin has black hair? Thanks! --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:03, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

:Feel free to [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Fingolfin&action=edit correct the information], but remember to [[Help:References|cite the source]].--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 15:06, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

:And, at all times, [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]]. Just because you don't agree with something does not mean other people are illiterate and fanwankers. Calling people names does not make you right. :There's no such thing as a "legitimate Tolkien artist". They're all fan artists. Some just get paid for it.
:This is a site where lovers of the books and the movies, and even the games, write articles about just about everything related to the works. You can add anything you add about a character, provided you give a source. If you change something into something completely different, without citing a source... it gets reverted. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 15:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

:I am the 'illiterate' that reverted it, because I haven't seen any reference about the subject and you did not point out any sources, and you weren't even a member of the wiki. Edit: By the way while at it, can someone correct the positioning of the pictures on Fingolfin's page? --[[User:Cemrond|Cemrond]]

::There is a problem with either the infobox or the pronounce template. I haven't had time to investigate further to find a solution. --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 20:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

:::I have solved the problem of Fingolfin's hair colour by providing a reference to his having dark hair; in other passages it is specifically stated that only Finarfin had blonde hair. I hope this settles the matter.
:::KA, I have also tried to solve this problem, it seems to only happen when an article has both an infobox and a pronounce. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:59, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

The overwhelmingly fast amount of Noldor have raven black hair.  I think there are more Noldor with red hair then there are with blond hair.

== Golfimbul ==

Can we mention somewhere that [[Golfimbul]] the orc-captain was once called Fingolfin? [[User:Galangren|Galangren]] ([[User talk:Galangren|talk]]) 15:56, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

:I think it is kinda difficult, because that's quite an isolated idea unrelated to the Elven character and doesn't feel pertinent anywhere in this article. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] ([[User talk:LorenzoCB|talk]]) 19:49, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

::Fair point. It really doesn't have much do do with the character, it just happens to be something I personally find very funny. [[User:Galangren|Galangren]] ([[User talk:Galangren|talk]]) 15:39, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

== Chosen to led the Noldor ==

I think it's worth including details from [[The Grey Annals]] that Fingolfin getting the title of High King was by choice, not simply Maedhros waiving it. It also gives a lot more context to the ramifications of Caranthir's outburst.

 §65 Now the Noldor held council in Mithrim to ponder all such matters, and to resolve how they should deal in friendship with the Grey-elves, and yet best gather force and dispose it for the war upon Morgoth. For that cause they had come to Middle-earth; yet to many the northlands seemed chill and the south countries fairer, and they desired greatly new homes where their folk might increase in peace far from the camps of war in the highlands.
 
 §66 To this council came Angrod out of Doriath bearing the words of King Thingol, and their welcome seemed cold to the Noldor. The sons of Fëanor indeed were wroth thereat; and Maidros laughed, saying: ‘He is a king that can hold his own, or else his title is vain. Thingol does but grant us lands where his power does not run. Indeed Doriath only would be his realm this day, but for the coming of the Noldor. Therefore in Doriath let him reign, and be glad that he hath the sons of Finwe for neighbours, not the Orcs of Morgoth that we found. Elsewhere it shall go as seems good to us.’
 
 §67 But Cranthir, who loved not the sons of Finrod, and was the harshest of the brethren and the most quick to anger, cried aloud: ‘Yea more! Let not the sons of Finrod run hither and thither with their tales to this Dark-elf in his caves! Who made them our spokesmen to deal with him? And though they be come indeed to Beleriand, let them not so swiftly forget that their father was a lord of the Noldor, though their mother was of other kin.’
 
 §68 Then Angrod was exceedingly wroth and went forth from the council. Maidros indeed rebuked Cranthir; but the greater part of the Noldor, of both followings, hearing his words were troubled in heart, fearing the fell spirit of the sons of Fëanor that, it seemed, would ever be like to burst forth in rash word or violence.
 
  §69 Therefore when the council came to the choosing of one to be the overlord of the Exiles and the head of all their princes, the choice of all save few fell on Fingolfin. And even as the choice was made known, all those that heard it recalled the words of Mandos that the House of Fëanor should be called the Dispossessed for ever. None the less ill for that did the sons of Fëanor take this choice, save Maidros only, though it touched him the nearest. But he restrained his brethren, saying to Fingolfin: ‘If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the choice would come rightly to thee, the eldest here of the house of Finwë, and not the least wise.’
 
 ... [Commentary]
 §§65–71 The content of the annal for the year 7 is largely new, save that in QS (§98) there is told of the waiving of the high-kingship of the Noldor by Maidros, and the secret disavowal of this among some at least of his brothers (‘to this his brethen did not all in their hearts agree’). In GA there is no mention of what is told in QS, that ‘Maidros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Eruman, and gave back the goods of Fingolfin that had been borne away in the ships’ (but see §83 and commentary); on the other hand we learn here of the scornful rejection of Thingol’s claim by the Fëanorians (with no mention of Fingolfin’s acceptance of it, see under §§63–4 above), of Cranthir’s harsh disposition and his insulting speech at the council, of the ''choosing'' of Fingolfin as overlord of the Noldor, of the opinion that Maidros was behind the swift departure of the Fëanorians into the eastern lands (in order to lessen the chances of strife and to bear the brunt of the likeliest assault), and of his remaining in friendship with the other houses of the Noldor, despite the isolation of the Fëanorians.

[[User:Oberiko|Oberiko]] ([[User talk:Oberiko|talk]]) 01:09, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

== Vinya Finwë ==

Very interesting note discussing the Sindarization of Finrod and other names.
 I think name ''Fingon'', ''Fingolfin'', ''Finrod'', ''Felagund'', ''Inglor'', &c. should be revised. They are mostly only etymologizable with difficult.
    (1) Certainly '''Finrod''' must become name of ''Felagund'' instead of ''Inglor'', NOT
    of his father since "Finrod" never left Valinor and could not have a "Sindarized" name.
 The names of Finwë's sons were 1) ''Kurufinwë'' 2) ''Ñolofinë'' and 3) ''Sara-'', ''Arafinwë''. Also "mother-names" 1) ''Feanáro'', 2) ''Ingoldo'' and 3) ''Ingalaure'' (because his hair was golden, even more golden than the Vanyar).
    Lauringa, Lavaringa.
    Inglawar. Loaringo, Lawaringo, Lavaringa. Ingilaur.
    áwa; awá > oa; áwa - ava
 These names in 'Sindarized form' are ''Feänor'', ''Ingolfin'', and ''Inglor'' (but this not actually applied to ''Arafinwë'' who never came to Beleriand). ''Ingolfin'' arose in this way. After banishment of Feanor (& Finwe) Ingoldo became king, and took name of ''Finwë''; but was known as ''Vinya Finwe'' or ''Ingoldo Finwe''. From ''Ingoldofinwe'' > ''Ingolfin''. [If ''Fingolfin'' is used at all this must be for ''Finwe-ñolofinwe''.] 
From PE17<ref>{{PE|17}}, pg. 118</ref>.
<references /> [[User:Oberiko|Oberiko]] ([[User talk:Oberiko|talk]]) 20:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

== A new introduction? ==
Am I the only one who finds the current introduction to the article to be lacking? Shouldn't the introduction focus on a summary of his character and deeds instead of his genealogy? - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 21:02, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

@Oberiko, I don't much care either way if it stays in the intro, but Fingolfin's loyalty to his brother seems pretty explicit to me. 
{{quote|Fingolfin said: ‘Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us.’<br>‘I hear thee,’ said Fëanor. ‘So be it.’ But they did not know the meaning that their words would bear.|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Darkening of Valinor]]"}}
The accompanying narration suggests that Fingolfin's promise made to Fëanor would drive future events. Fingolfin may not have loved or liked his brother, but on the strength of his promise to follow, he followed him through to Middle-earth in spite of the kinslaying and abandonment. Maybe you would describe this as something other than "loyalty," idk. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 22:08, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:@Mord, we also have several cases where "loyalty" can be disputed. Even from the next chapter of the Silmarillion we have the following
{{quote|Fingolfin and Turgon his son therefore spoke against Fëanor, and fierce words awoke, so that once again wrath came near to the edge of swords.|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Flight of the Noldor]]"}}

:And further can be found within Morgoth's Ring:
{{quote|Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë, and so enraged Fëanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.|''[[The Shibboleth of Fëanor]]''}}

 As [Fëanor] said with some justice: ''‘My brother’s claim rests only upon a decree of the Valar; but of what force is that for those who have rejected them and seek to escape from their prison-land?’'' But Fingolfin answered: ''‘I have not rejected the Valar, nor their authority in all matters where it is just for them to use it. But if the Eldar were given free choice to leave Middle-earth and go to Aman, and accepted it because of the loveliness and bliss of that land, their free choice to leave it and return to Middle-earth, when it has become dark and desecrated, cannot be taken away. Moreover I have an errand in Middle-earth, the avenging of the blood of my father upon Morgoth, whom the Valar let loose among us. Fëanor seeks first his stolen treasures.’''
 [It is said in the text at this point that Fingolfin claimed to be ‘the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë’, and the same was said in the essay proper (p. 336). All the texts agree that after the banishment of Fëanor from Tirion, and the departure of Finwë with him to Formenos, Fingolfin ruled the Ñoldor in Tirion; and it was said in the Quenta Silmarillion (see IV.95, V.235) that afterwards, when the Flight of the Ñoldor began, those of Tirion ‘would not now renounce the kingship of Fingolfin’. On the other hand, in the final story of the events leading to the Flight, when Fëanor and Fingolfin had become half-brothers, they were reconciled ‘in word’ before the throne of Manwë at the fateful festival; and in that reconciliation Fingolfin said to Fëanor: ''‘Thou shalt lead and I will follow’'' (see X.197, 287).]

:I think it's fair to say that Fingolfin's relationship with Fëanor was more complex than just "loyal" or "unloyal". Best to present the information as accurately as possible and let the readers draw their own conclusions. [[User:Oberiko|Oberiko]] ([[User talk:Oberiko|talk]]) 17:15, 6 November 2023 (UTC)