Lords of the Eotheod, Vidumavi, etc.
1) I see that in the article about Frumgar, the assumption that Frumgar is a grandson of Forthwini seems to be taken as a given, even though I was unable to find a source to corroborate this.
- It was understandable that you could not find a source in works that were written by J.R.R. Tolkien for the statement that Frumgar was the grandson of Forthwini, because J.R.R. Tolkien never wrote who his father or grandfather were. I added an article by Michael Martinez from his Middle-earth blog where he explains based on which sources he bases his speculation on that Frumgar could have been the grandson of Forthwini. --Akhorahil 17:24, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
2) Vidumavi's death date is given as T.A. 1344, even though it was emended to T.A. 1332 (which also makes far more sense, since the former date would have her live to probably about 110+, even though she is not a Numenorean).
- I could not find a source for year of birth of Vidumavi in works that were written by J.R.R. Tolkien. There are only two versions of her year of death in The Peoples of Middle-earth. As a consequence, any speculation how many years she was old when she died is just a speculation. We only know from POME that "she lived to a great age, as such was reckoned among her people". We know from appendix A that Valacar was sent to Rhovanion in 1250. We know from manuscript C of The Heirs of Elendil from POME that Eldacar, the son of Valacar and Vidumavi was born in 1255. Assuming when a woman is able to conceive children we can only guess how old Vidumavi was when she married Valacar. The two years of death of Vidumavi are from The Making of Appendix A from POME from the Note on the expansion of the tale of the Kin-strife in the Second Edition. Based on the later year of death, Vidumavi died 89 years after the year of birth of her son Eldacar and based on the earlier year of death, Vidumavi died 77 years after the year of birth of her son Eldacar. I agree, that the year 1332 is probably more realistic, if one takes the above average age of death of women in our age as a guideline. --Akhorahil 17:24, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
3) It seems generally assumed that Marhari, the father of the first Lord of the Eotheod, is a descendant of some other child of Vidugavia. However, it is stated in The Peoples of Middle-earth that Vidumavi and Valacar had, in addition to Eldacar, other children; and given the fact that as evidenced by the kingship of Rohan being able to pass on to the children of the previous king's sister (for example, in the case of Frealaf and Eomer), is it not reasonable to assume that such a custom existed during the time of the Rohirrim's ancestors as well?
- Long story short, Marhari (and the rest of his descendants - i.e. Lords of the Eotheod and the Kings of Rohan) could be the descendants of Vidumavi's other children, even though they usually seem to be presented as descendants of some other child of Vidugavia (as is the case here at TG, as well as on Encyclopedia of Arda).
- P.S. If I have missed something, some quote or reference, please feel free to correct me! IvarTheBoneless 17:39, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Michael Martinez, that J.R.R. Tolkien would have probably mentioned it, if a king or chieftain of the Éothéod would not have been the son of the king or chieftain that he succeeded. We know from the first paragraph of II The House of Eorl from Appendix A that "the forefathers of Eorl claimed descent from kings of Rhovanion, whose realm lay beyond Mirkwood before the invasions of the Wainriders, and thus they accounted themselves kinsmen of the kings of Gondor descended from Eldacar". They could still consider themselves kinsmen of the kings of Gondor, descended from Eldacar, if they were descended from another child of Vidugavia and not from Vidumavi, because they would still be related to Eldacar and thus would still be "kin" (i.e. part of the same family). The lords of the Éothéod could be descended from another son of daugther of Vidumavi and still be kinsmen of the descendants of Eldacar. I think that J.R.R. Tolkien would have explicitly mentioned if the lords of the Éothéod would claim descent from a king of Gondor and thus descent from a Númenorean or half-Númenorean. For example J.R.R. Tolkien mentioned that the father of Théoden married Morwen of Lossarnach who was from Gondor and even descended from the Númenoreans of Dol Amroth. In Appendix A and in The Line of Elros in UT he usually mentions if a king died childless and if the next king was the nephew or some other relative. I believe, if he did not mention anything else about a king (e.g. Kings of Gondor or Kings of Númenor), then the king was the son of the king that he succeeded. --Akhorahil 17:24, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- Descent from Elendil is always a big deal for JRRT. I concur with Akhorahil that JRRT would have described Marhari as a descendant of Valacar if he were intended to be so. I took the liberty of clarifying that the familial relationship between Forthwini and Frumgar is a matter of speculation in their respective articles. --Mord 07:23, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. J.R.R. Tolkien was very clear in matters of genealogy and especially related to royal families. For example take Angamaitë and Sangahyando, even though they do not play large roles in the lengendarium but still they were descrided as members of House of Anarion then how can he forget ancestors of the great Kings of Rohan. Either way they were descendents of Vidugavia and akin to the Kings of Gondor and thus akin to Chieftains of the Dunedain.--Shivam 11:57, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Eotheod Location
I hope it's okay I use this thread. The entry on the Éothéod states that the Éothéod settle on the eastern bank of the River Anduin (after their expulsion from Rhovanion). However, if my edition of the "Unfinished Tales" is correct, they settle mainly on the western bank. Am I missing something? Or is that an error in the entry? 141.101.76.52 21:45, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think you should use Éothéod talk page.
- Now, if we see text - "the Éothéod were first known by that name in the days of King Calimehtar of Gondor (who died in the year 1936 of the Third Age), at which time they were a small people living in the Vales of Anduin between the Carrock and the Gladden Fields, for the most part on the west side of the river." This was before Battle of the Plains.
- Whereas after the battle - "As for the Northmen, a few, it is said, fled over the Celduin (River Running) and were merged with the folk of Dale under Erebor (with whom they were akin), some took refuge in Gondor, and others were gathered by Marhwini son of Marhari (who fell in the rearguard action after the Battle of the Plains). Passing north between Mirkwood and Anduin they settled in the Vales of Anduin, where they were joined by many fugitives who came through the Forest. This was the beginning of the Éothéod.
- If they settled between Mirkwood and Anduin then it must have been Eastern bank(as per map).Shivam
- I think the correct interpretation here is that the proto-Éothéod traveled north via the east bank in the migration of 1856, but after they arrived in the northern vales they crossed the river to mostly settle the west bank in the years between their arrival and the campaign of 1899. The way I would parse the key sentence in the second quote would be something like "they passed north betwen Mirkwood and Anduin to reach the Vales of Anduin where they settled." --Mord 05:05, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with the user Mord. The sentence only says where they passed north ("between Mirkwood and Anduin", which means in the east side of the river Anduin), but does not say on which side of sides of the river they settled after they had reached the north. The other statement said it was mainly in the West side and the statement about the location of Framsburg implies that Framsburg was on the west side. --Akhorahil 05:28, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- I know they were on the west side then why would they flee again on the west side. The only possible explanation can be they fled to eastern side of the river between Mirkwood and Anduin. Later they migrated northward. Also if you refer to The Atlas of Middle-Earth (which I have no idea whether it is a reliable source or not but still) Leod leads Eotheod along the Eastern banks of Anduin to help Cirion.--Shivam 06:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- You misunderstood. The statement that they were a small people living in the Vales of Anduin between the Carrock and the Gladden Fields, for the most part on the west side of the river (UT Cirion and Eorl (i) second paragraph, first sentence) was after the Battle of the Plains against the Wainriders where King Narmacil II fell in battle in 1856 (Appendix B 1856 Gondor looses its eastern territories, and Narmacil II falls in battle) and before the battle of 1899 on Dagorlad against the Wainriders (Appendix B 1899 King Calimehtar defeats the Wainriders on Dagorlad). The second sentence in the second paragraph of UT Cirion and Eorl (i) says that they were a remnant of the Northmen, who had lived in the wide plains between Mirkwood and the River Running before (the river lies to the east of Mirkwood) and the third, fourth and firth paragraph are about this time where the Northmen lived east of Mirkwood. In the fourth paragraph in that time where the Northmen lived east of Mirkwood the dearth of Narmacil II is mentioned and in the fifth paragraph it is mentioned that some of the Northmen were gathered by Marhari, passed north between Mirkwood and Anduin and settled in the Vales of Anduin. This is the link to the first sentence in the second paragraph, which makes clear that the Vales of Anduin are on both sides of the river Anduin, but that most of them lived on the west side of the river and only a smaller part on the east side of the river. In the seventh pargraph it is said that Marhardi that after the battle of King Calimehtar against the Wainriders (in 1899) had to retire again (i.e. to move back) to his land beside the Anduin and the Northmen never again returned to their former homes (i.e. to the plains between Mirkwood and the River Running). From Appendix A (II) it becomes clear that the Éothéod still lived in the vales of Anduin between the Carrock and the Gladden in the days of King Eärnil II and that they moved further north to near the sources of the Anduin between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood after they heard of the overthrow of the Witch-king (Appendix B Third Age 1975). Kind Eärnil II died in 2043 (Appendix A (ii) The Southern Line Heirs of Anárion Kings of Gondor Eärnil II). Please read more carefully to avoid using talkpages for questions that could have been avoided by a more careful reading of the sources. --Akhorahil 10:00, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, I got it. Thank you for clarification.--Shivam 16:06, 22 March 2022 (UTC)