Latest comment: 30 March 2024 by SkyEventide
Want to chat about Tolkien in real-time?
Join our Discord server for discussions, collaboration, and a vibrant community!
I believe the full letter has been auctioned last month; someone even made a transcript of it which you can see here - the original documents can be seen here.
Finally, we get a late version of the ruin of Doriath by J.R.R. himself! However, I'm not sure of whether there are any copyright issues with incorporating the information found there into TG. Also, since I can't clearly read Tolkien's handwriting, I can't determine how accurate the transcript is. - IvarTheBoneless 14:58, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- Unless we copypasted the whole document, citing while providing a link to the auction would not be a problem. I'd trust the transcription, but we cannot use it. This is so exiciting. I cannot wait to read it with calm. --Quentandil 20:13, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe we should also ask Mith and/or Hyarion about it? - IvarTheBoneless 07:57, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- I would just say that we should make sure that the transcripts are permanently archived somewhere reliable before we start citing them. I see no copyright reason that we should not link to a third party set of images. --Mord 04:53, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- I've been examining the texts more closely, and I'm not sure if we should put its contents into OVOTL or the main section - after all, even though it is a late manuscript, it contradicts the published Silmarillion quite drastically at some points. That said, however, its depiction of Dwarves is much more sympathetic than in the 1977 version; in fact, I believe it is more in line with what is said in the LOTR of the Dwarven-Elven animosity, and how each side claims to be the victim. - IvarTheBoneless 14:25, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- Since it's unpublished I think the best spot for it will be in OVOTL. I agree about the random Google Doc maybe not being the best source to reference. But if it's the only transcription we have at this time maybe we add a link with a warning that it is unverified and let the visitor decide? I've saved the scans, but I'm on the fence as to whether uploading the each page is going to step out of fair use territory. --Hyarion 14:43, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Hyarion. The main reference will still be The Silmarillion, which is the most known. If given the case, the text is published, we can apply it more widely and with more detail, and even in the History sections, but now we only have images as actual references, which cannot be properly cited; so using the info from this text should be applied very shortly. I personally believe this is more important than the story in the published Silmarillion, as Christopher Tolkien would have think the same, but we have to wait.
Hyarion: I believe you cannot upload all the images in the wiki, as for them to fall into fair use, they must be used in articles and not be merely hoarded. At least that's what Mith explained me some years ago. --Quentandil 08:15, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Hyarion. The main reference will still be The Silmarillion, which is the most known. If given the case, the text is published, we can apply it more widely and with more detail, and even in the History sections, but now we only have images as actual references, which cannot be properly cited; so using the info from this text should be applied very shortly. I personally believe this is more important than the story in the published Silmarillion, as Christopher Tolkien would have think the same, but we have to wait.
- Yes, I agree that currently it would be unfeasible to include specific information from the texts, since it would require relying on the transcript - since referencing the auction site and the images of the manuscripts on it is kind of misleading when dealing with specific lore in it (such as, say, that Thingol promised the Dwarves a tithe of the treasure as payment). Pity, there is some incredible stuff there.
- P.S. Someone on r/tolkienfans suggested the possibility of it being a forgery - was there any analysis of these manuscripts to make sure that they are authentic? I also wonder what Tolkien Estate has to say about this. - IvarTheBoneless 08:32, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Hey, sorry for suddenly reviving a thread from two years ago, but it just came to my attention today that my transcription of the Hoard letter is linked here (and might possibly be the only one currently available?), so I signed up to mention that if anyone has questions, suggestions, or corrections to give me for the words I marked as unsure reading, I'm available. I used to have suggestions enabled in the doc, but at some point I was spammed by edits that were nothing but keysmashes, so I turned them off. SkyEventide (talk) 21:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)