"In an earlier version Hiril was the daughter of Barahir and Emeldir, and the younger sister of Beren, but this was later dropped."
- I don't think that Hiril the daughter of Barahir was actually "dropped" - her name only appears as a late(?) addition to the genealogical table of the House of Bëor (WJ 232) without any other mention in the stories. She must be an entirely different person from Hiril the daughter of Halmir (WJ 269), although just a name. At least C. Tolkien does not mention the other Hiril when he discusses the development of the character in the House of Haleth. --Tik 17:28, 14 December 2007 (EST)
Position of Hiril among Halmir's children
I wonder about the date of birth of Hiril. In 'The Wanderings of Húrin' Christopher Tolkien gives a new genealogical table indicating her as the fourth child and second daughter of Halmir; but he also states that these are 'roughly made alterations to the table of the Haladin', of which he only gives 'the essentials in compressed form'.
On the other hand, in note 55 to the same text, he quotes a 'discussion' on the subject of Manthor indicating that 'he was of the senior line, but by a daughter (Hiril)'. The context being that of the election of a new Warden, when Brandir and Hunthor were both dead, for Manthor to be 'of the senior line' at that time would mean for Hiril to be born before Hundar (Halmir's second son and Hardang's grandfather), so between 414 and 418.
Is there another source that I do not know about and that would assertain that Hiril was indeed Halmir's last child, and that she was born around 422? Meneldil Palantir Talmayar (talk) 08:44, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
- There isn't really any other source I'm aware of - and the 'c. 422' is just unsourced invention (or rather a misguided deduction) on the part of whoever edited the page at the time.
- Given the note 55, as well as the dates of birth of Halmir's children (Haldir/414, Hundar/418, Hareth/420), you can see that they follow a 2 year gap with a conspicuous exception of 'Haldir -> Hundar'; and Hiril's line, as you rightly point out, was said to be senior to that of Hundar's.
- All of this together leads me to believe that Hiril was Halmir's second child (born c. 416 if we're assuming the 2 year gap as in other births - but this is only a deduction, never explicitly said). IvarTheBoneless (talk) 09:49, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
- I also had noticed the gap between the births of Haldir and Hundar, though that did not seem absolutely decisive to me. Another element is the footnote to the text accompanied by note 33: the footnote by Tolkien indicates that 'as yet the mastership had been given, as if it were a lordship or kingdom, to the eldest of the eldest line', suggesting that Hardang, not Manthor, was from the eldest line. But Christopher Tolkien states (in note 33) that 'the whole footnote was struck through (before the emendation of Harathor to Hardang)'.
- So even if the matter is quite obscure, I also would rather tend to consider that Hiril was Halmir's second child. Meneldil Palantir Talmayar (talk) 10:00, 11 March 2025 (UTC)