Talk:Holdwine

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name "Holdwine of the Shire"

Nowhere does the footnote to Éomer Éadig identify the character of Merry with this phrase. Yes, the name Holdwine is included, but not a reference to "annals" nor to the Shire (although his title of Master of Buckland certainly confirms he is from the Shire). Ed8r (talk) 17:22, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

The sources clearly specify that Meriadoc Brandybuck had received the name Holdwine (or "Holdwine of the Mark") from Éomer, so the character of Merry is identified with the name Holdwine (or "Holdwine of the Mark)". From the footnote for Éomer Éadig in the section The Kings of the Mark in Appendix A Annals of the Kings and Rulers in LOTR: "For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed éowyn had the aid of Théoden’s esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a Halfling out of a far country, though éomer gave him honour in the Mark and the name of Holdwine.[This Holdwine was none other than Meriadoc the Magnificent who was Master of Buckland.]" From the chapter Many Partings of LOTR "At the last before the guests set out Éomer and Éowyn came to Merry, and they said: ‘Farewell now, Meriadoc of the Shire and Holdwine of the Mark! Ride to good fortune, and ride back soon to our welcome!’". From the entry for the year 1484 S.R. (Shire Reckoning) in Appendix B The Tale of Years in LOTR: "In the spring of the year a message came from Rohan to Buckland that King Éomer wished to see Master Holdwine once again. Meriadoc was then old (102) but still hale. He took counsel with his friend the Thain, and soon after they handed over their goods and offices to their sons and rode away over the Sarn Ford, and they were not seen again in the Shire. It was heard after that Master Meriadoc came to Edoras and was with King Éomer before he died in that autumn.". --Akhôrahil (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

The fact that Meriadoc received the name Holdwine from Éomer is based on annals of the Kingdom of Rohan or on other material collected by Meriadoc. The information in "Appendix A Annals of the Kings and Rulers" and "Appendix B The Tale of Years" is from copies or summaries of histories or legends relating to Elendil and his heirs. Appendix B was made "with the assistance of material collected by Meriadoc". The first sentence of Appendix A reads "Concerning the sources for most of the matter contained in the following Appendices, especially A to D, see the note at the end of the Prologue." The beginning of the last paragraph of the Note on the Shire Records in the Prologue of LOTR starts with "At Great Smials the books were of less interest to Shire-folk, though more important for larger history. None of them was written by Peregrin, but he and his successors collected many manuscripts written by scribes of Gondor: mainly copies or summaries of histories or legends relating to Elendil and his heirs. Only here in the Shire were to be found extensive materials for the history of Núng of Sauron. It was probably at Great Smials that The Tale of Years was put together, with the assistance of material collected by Meriadoc." --Akhôrahil (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Sigh. Yes, thank you, I know all that. I read it and re-read it looking for more specific information before I ever posted my comment. But I now find that it is in HoME that we're told "For this matter the authority of Holdwine is often cited...". And it is there that it is said "...material is very extensive, even though it is often set out in brief and annalistic form...". So shouldn't this page acknowledge that source?

(btw, you might want to correct what happened in your note where it was supposed to say "Númenor and the arising of Sauron.") Ed8r (talk) 15:38, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Sigh. Thank you for your reply. Please be aware that other people cannot read your mind and do not know what you already know and what you did not already know before you posted your comment. It would help if you clearly state which information lacks sources (e.g. whether it lacks sources that the character Meriadoc Brandybuck is identified as Holdwine) and what specific text should be changed (e.g. "of the Shire" should be deleted and should be replaced by "of the Mark"; ", and used by them to record his deeds in their annals" should be deleted). The information from note 2 from chapter IX The Making of Appendix A of The Peoples of Middle-earth that you cited is from the introduction to Appendix A in the first edition of The Lord of the Rings. J.R.R. Tolkien deleted that text in the second edition of The Lord of the Rings where he was not under pressure from his publisher to cut space and where he inserted information in other places, including in Appendix A and in the Prologue of The Lord of the Rings. The Note on the Shire Records was added in the second edition of The Lord of the Rings according to the chapter I The Prologue of The Peoples of Middle-earth and according to note 2 of the chapter IX. --Akhôrahil (talk) 08:35, 27 March 2026 (UTC)