Talk:House of Hador

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Family tree

I just wanted to check, that the rest of the family tree will be added in due course? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 08:35, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I was planning on that, but I wasn't sure how to add characters in the family tree. Is there a page where that is explained? --DoctorWellington 15:01, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, I tried it, but I couldn't fix Rían's box. --DoctorWellington 15:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Make sure you put the spaces in around the names and that the width of each row is the same. If you look at how I've edited it you'll see what I mean. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 16:16, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips! I only figured it out through try-and-check, by clicking "Show preview" a bunch of times, so it couldn't be perfect. --DoctorWellington 14:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

The canonicity of "House of Marach"

I have an issue regarding the use of the term "House of Marach". As I understand from what I've read from Tolkien's works, I have yet to see the term being used within his works. The only times where he refers to the noble family, he refers to them as the "Third House of the Edain" or "House of Hador". Now I understand that there were prominent members of the same family before Hador himself who gave his name to the house but I haven't seen Marach give his name to the House itself. He has given his name to the general people of this race, specifically the term "Folk of Marach". Now one important note to make is that the noble family is distinguished from the general people who followed the house. For instance, "Third House of the Edain" is used to designate those of the actual ruling family and terms such as "Folk of Marach" are used to designate the culture of people who followed the before-mentioned house. Therefore, in the infoboxes pertaining to the members of this House prior to Hador himself, it's not neccesarily proper to give their House designation as "House of Marach" (a non-canon term). A more suitable term would be "Third House of the Edain". Any thoughts regarding this matter?--Tolkienator 21:40, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

You are correct about the "House of Marach", I properly replaced the term in all the articles. However, Tolkien usually applied the same terms both to the ruling family and to its followers when talking about any "House of". For example, in this case the "folk of Marach" was later known as the "House of Hador" (WJ:234). About the article name, the wiki uses the term that is mainly known to the readers. --LorenzoCB 17:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Although I agree with the use of "folk of Marach" when addressing the culture and the people of that group of Edain, the term "House" in the legendarium always refers to a specific family and is not assigned to the general people who followed the family. Therefore, I believe that it is more appropriate to assign the term "Third House of the Edain" to all members of the "House of Hador" that predated Hador with a note addressing the fact that the term "House of Hador" only applied to those of the family from Hador's generation and beyond.--Tolkienator (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Tallest save the Elves ?

Someone could tell me where we can find a source for this : "They were marked as being the tallest men inhabitants of Beleriand save the Elves" ?

For I've found the opposite in HOME 5 p276 (Quenta Silmarillion §130) : "They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves" and nothing to contradict. Beside, the Numenoreans are also taller than the Elves in the §3 of the 2nd and 3rd version of the Fall of Numenor (HOME 5 and HOM 9) : "$3. And in the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like the Firstborn than any other races of Men that have been; yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature." Erendis 09:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)Erendis

You are using old passages from the 30s or beggining of LotR writings that not necessary fit all the later narratives. Tolkien went back to write the Elders Days in the 50s and to polish LotR. His ideas on height had already changed.

You can see passages like this: - "... For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty..." from THoME, vol 11, circa 1951.

Even the ones you mentioned are from different "building" versions (1940 or 41) where the last one you see Chris use It in The Silmarillion, which is different from the ones you are mentioning. The last part "...yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature..." does not exist in later version that was used in The Silmarillion.

He maintained that in Of Dwarves and Men, TPoME (1969), where he says:

'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’

Which is from the same essay used for this passage (that comes from a note) on this current page: - "Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar"

You see how more similar Eldar are from men that previously were taller and broader? the note comes as Tolkien is trying to explain the physical differences between the houses and how the Hadoreans were similar to the Eldar "almost indistinguishable".

The distinctions among the houses also changed, as per the earlier passages the Hadoreans are taller and stronger, but as per the later essay Of Dwarves and Men those of the house of Beör are broader and goes on to cite Beren in a note.

Also, In the chapter "Beards" (1973) in TNoME, Tolkien was asked if Aragorn is beardless. Which he answers yes because the elven gene is extremely dominant going so far as saying this about royal and noble númenóreans (with elvish blood) when compared to regular númenóreans: - "The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness..."

Which again matches with his letters such as this one (Letter 131) from 1951/52: - "The Númenóreans ... are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves"

Lastly, how can Hadoreans be taller if the two tallest of the children of Eru living in Beleriand were of the Eldar? Tolkien on Turgon: - "tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol"

Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin

Thanks for reading. Kaue Tadaieski (talk) 23:15, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your message and researches. I hope my (very very long, maybe too long ?) answer will be relevant. If not, I apologize : maybe it will be because I’m not an english speaker at home.

First, I answer your last point :

You write : Lastly, how can Hadoreans be taller if the two tallest of the children of Eru living in Beleriand were of the Eldar ? Tolkien on Turgon: - "tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol"

Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin

=> It seems to me that when Tolkien talks about race’s heights, it’s an average. Nothing prevents Thingol and Turgon, as exceptional beings, from being the tallest of all the Children of Eru, even if the average size of the elves is smaller than de Hadorians’ one.

Now, I answer other points :

a) You write : You can see passages like this: - "... For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty..." from THoME, vol 11, circa 1951.

=> Then the text goes : " But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the Children of Eru, ready in mind, bold and steadfast."

Your quote compares Beorians with Noldor / Elves, but my subject is a comparison between Hadorians and Elves. And this 50’s text says that "people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature" as the 30’s text does.

b) You write : Even the ones you mentioned are from different versions until the latest one you see Chris use in The Silmarillion, different from the one you are mentioning. The last part "...yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature..." does not exist in later version that was used in The Silmarillion.

=> Quenta Silmarillion published by C. Tolkien is not a reference for me if original texts (from HOME / NOME) exist.

c) You write : He maintained that in Of Dwarves and Men, TPoME (1969), where he says:

'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’

=> That seems to say that Numenoreans are as tall as Noldor, but says nothing about people of Hador at 1st Age.

d) You write : Which is from the same essay used for this passage (that comes from a note) on this current page: - "Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar"

You see how more similar Eldar are from men that previously were taller and broader ? the note comes as Tolkien is trying to explain the physical differences between the houses and how the Hadoreans were similar to the Eldar "almost indistinguishable".

=> It seems to me that this is not a strong proof : this remark does not seem to be applied too strictly because the Elves have pointed ears, unlike the Edain. So if this remark is true while it does not take into account this difference of ear, we can also consider that a difference in size, notable, but not too pronounced, cannot constitute an inconsistency. This comparison applies perhaps in a rather vague context and perhaps also, above all, a statement based on more immaterial elements : it is placed after a remark on the vivacity of body and mind, audacity and noble generosity, and not after characteristics describing the physical body.

In HOME 11 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p224 §33 ; 1958), Bëorians are said to be "most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory " ; we have here, (again ?), a comparison between Edain and Noldor based on psychological traits.

e) You write : The distinctions among the houses also changed, as per the earlier passages the Hadoreans are taller and stronger, but as per the later essay Of Dwarves and Men those of the house of Beör are broader and goes on to cite Beren in a note.

=> " broader " is not " taller " and "Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among [the folk of Bëor], and most were broader and more heavy in build." are words from "Of Dwarves and Men", so it seems to me that Hadorians are "taller" and Beorians are "broader".

f) You write : Also, In the chapter "Beards"(1973) in TNoME, Tolkien was asked if Aragorn is beardless. Which he says yes because the elven gene is extremely dominant going so far as to say this about Royal and noble númenóreans (with elvish blood) when compared to regular númenóreans: - "The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness..."

=> ok, this one seems to be quite a strong proof : how can be the royal house with elvish blood, taller than average Númenóreans, if Elves are smaller than them ?!

Well, I see 2 answers :

- on the form and words, this § could talk about the entire descent of Elros and therefore take into account the Dunedain of the 3rd Age who are still smaller (Aragorn measures 6 ft 6, which is the minimum of the Eldar)

- on the substance, it is possible that the effect of elven blood is not so much to simply add cm mathematically, but to allow a better body potential and therefore, that people with elven blood find themselves being taller than they would have been, and thus “a little above the average” of their people.

As you can see, I’m not convince by your points except the last one which could be, however, understood in another way. I admit this other way is somewhat debatable (but I find it quite " Tolkienian " however), but it allows to unified all texts about this subject.

See these texts and words (I know you know them, but with this selection, you will know about which parts I base my reflexion) :

Text A : HOME 5 (Quenta Silmarillion p 276 §130 ; 1930-37)

- Greatest was the house of Hador [...]. They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves; [...] Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were not so tall; their backs were broader and their legs shorter and less swift. […] But the people of Beor were dark or brown of hair; […] Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that day ;

Text B : HOME 5 (Fall of Numenor 2nd version p23 §3 ; 1928) & HOME 9 (Fall of Numenor 3e version p334 §3 ; 1940-41)

- In the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; yet they were less fair and less wise than the Elves, though greater in stature. For the Numenoreans were exceedingly tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of men in Middle-earth.

Text C : HOME 11 (The Grey Annals p50 §135 ; 1951-58)

- The men of Beor […] were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the Children of Eru […]. Like unto them were the woodmen of Haleth, yet somewhat broader and less high.

Text D : HOME 11 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p224 §33 ; 1958)

- Greatest was the House of Hador [...], peer of Elven-lords. [...] they were tall and strong, [...] But the people of the House of Beor were [...] Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all Men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory [...]. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift.  

Text E : NOME 3.11 Lives of Numenoreans ; 1965

[Note 1] The Númenóreans were […] of the “House of Hador” and the “House of Bëor”. [...] The people of Bëor were on the whole [...] less tall and of less stalwart build; [...] The people of Hador were strong, tall [...]

[…] the main mass of settlers came from the people of Bëor [...] was [...] in the North-west [...]. In most parts of the country Adûnayân was the native language of the people [...]

Text F : UT 4.1 Note 7 ; unknown years because of this

- There is no trace, either in the materials relating to the story of Aldarion and Erendis or elsewhere, of the presence of Drúedain in Númenor apart from the foregoing, save for a detached note which says that "the Edain who at the end of the War of the Jewels sailed over sea to Númenor contained few remnants of the Folk of Haleth, and the very few Drúedain that accompanied them died out long before the Downfall."

Text G : HOME 12 (Late Writings, Of Dwarves and Men, p308 et 310 ; 1969)

- […] among the Folk of Beor [...] Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare [...], and most were broader and more heavy in build. [46]

46 Beren the Renowned had hair of a golden brown and grey eyes ; he was taller than most of his kin, but he was broad-shouldered and very strong in his limbs.

In association with the Eldar, especially with the followers of King Finrod, they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the Folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, [47] [...]

47 The Eldar said, and recalled in the songs they still sang in later days, that they could not easily be distinguished from the Eldar - not while their youth lasted, the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.

But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War. [48]

48 [With this account of the Folk of Beor and the Folk of Hador may be compared the description that my father wrote many years before in the Quenta Silmarillion, V.276, $130.]

[...]

Hobbits […] were called 'halflings' ; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.

Text H : NOME (2.6 Descriptions of Characters, p194 " Heights " ; 1970)

- [The Eldar] were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time [= when they lived in Valinor]. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than 6 ft. In height; their full-grown elfmen no less than 6 ft. 6, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.

The Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full-grown men were commonly 7 ft. tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent.

Text I : NOME (2.5 "Beards" p187 ; 1972-73)

- Any element of an Elvish strain in human ancestry was very dominant and lasting (receding only slowly – as might be seen in Númenóreans of royal descent, in the matter of longevity also).

[...]

But the royal house was half-elven, having two strains of Elvish race in their ancestry [...]. The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average [...].

It seems possible to gather all these elements into a global and coherent vision :

1) There are size differences among the Elves :

- Eldar are taller on average than other Elves (H)

- Elfemales Eldar never measure less than 6 ft 6 and females rarely less than 6 ft (H)

- the Noldor could be the tallest of the Eldar in Middle-earth (C) ; they measure 7 ft average (G)

2) Originally, there are differences in size among the Edain (G, E and others) :

- the 1st House ("Bëorians") is not taller than the Eldar (C, A) because the Noldor are tall (C). The 1st House should therefore be at least the size of the other Eldar, if not a little taller, otherwise there would be no need to call on the Noldor specifically.

- the 2nd House ("Halethians") is smaller than the 1st one, according to the most recent text (H) which talk about the subject. Previously, it was always stated that they were smaller, but we could understand that this comparison was with the 1st House, or with the 3rd House (C, A) ; anyway, it has always been said that they were smaller.

- the 3rd House ( "Hadorians") is always described as tall (G, E, D, C, A), and often as taller than the 1st House (G, E, C, A). They are therefore, at a minimum, taller than the Eldar; an old text explicitly says that they are taller than the " Elves " (A). Afterwards, depending on how we understand this "taller than the Elves", we can consider the average of all the Elves (thus a value lower than the average size among the Eldar), or consider the race as a whole and that, therefore, the 3rd House would be on average, taller than the Noldor. Note that the text talks about "Elves" when we could use the term "Eldar". An element described below will allow us to favor one of these hypotheses.

3) The differences between the 1st and 3rd Houses diminish over time because these two peoples mix (G).

4) The population of Numenor is mainly made up of the 3rd House, then of the 1st House, and in a very small proportion, of the 2nd House (F, E).

- Numenoreans average size is 7 ft, like the Noldor (H, G). An old text indicates that they are taller than the " Elves " (B). There again, considering the disparity in size among the Elves, we can understand that the Numenoreans are taller than the average elvish size (which is smaller than the average size of the Eldar only), while being as the same size as the Noldor who would be the tallest Elves (in Middle-earth).

If we consider that the 1st House has an intermediate size between the Noldor and the other Eldar (therefore smaller than the Noldor ; see above, point 2 for this deduction), it would be a bit more coherent that the rest of the population (the 3rd House especially) is taller than the Noldor so that the mix brings the Numenorans to a size similar to that of the Noldor. (This is the element expected above to estimate the size of the 3rd House.)

So all these elements and texts let me think that Hadorians are taller than Eldar, even of Noldorin origin.

Are you still totally disagree ? Erendis (talk) 09:23, 28 October 2025 (UTC)

You write: " It seems to me that when Tolkien talks about race’s heights, it’s an average. Nothing prevents Thingol and Turgon, as exceptional beings, from being the tallest of all the Children of Eru, even if the average size of the elves is smaller than de Hadorians’ one."

R. Yes, average logic prevents that, because It's not only Thingol, but also Turgon, whose royal blood is later shown to make the Númenóreans taller. Tolkien could have dome some caviats on those heights, like he later did between Noldor and Teleri. It was also my last point because It's a cumulative point, last evidence.

You write: "Your quote compares Beorians with Noldor / Elves, but my subject is a comparison between Hadorians and Elves. And this 50’s text says that "people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature" as the 30’s text does."

R. The quote compares Beor with the Eldar, the Noldor is added to specifically point out the similar height between the Noldor and Númenóreans, which are taller than any house of Men, you dispute that? You're again wrong here, the Hadoreans are compared to the house of Beör too, this is a evolution based revision from AB 2, pre LotR. That is how Tolkien goes by his writing.

You write: "Quenta Silmarillion published by C. Tolkien is not a reference for me if original texts (from HOME / NOME) exist."

R. Then please sir, go to HoMe and again see that the final evolution of the tale (as described by Chris) is from circa 1958 "Akallabêth: The Downfall of Númenor". The reference is there maintained but your quote from circa 1940, where LotR was in Its initial phase and without revision, is not. This is a pre-LotR quote for all purposes.

You write: "That seems to say that Numenoreans are as tall as Noldor, but says nothing about people of Hador at 1st Age."

R. Because Númenóreans are the tallest of Men whom tales tell? Soon we will be arguing that Tuor and even Huor are taller than Elendil?

You write: "It seems to me that this is not a strong proof : this remark does not seem to be applied too strictly because the Elves have pointed ears, unlike the Edain. So if this remark is true while it does not take into account this difference of ear, we can also consider that a difference in size, notable, but not too pronounced, cannot constitute an inconsistency. This comparison applies perhaps in a rather vague context and perhaps also, above all, a statement based on more immaterial elements : it is placed after a remark on the vivacity of body and mind, audacity and noble generosity, and not after characteristics describing the physical body."

R. The elves having pointed ears to the point of Immediate discernment is false if having any at all. Tuor and Túrin (Adanedhel) are exact examples of the note as they can harldly be told apart from the elves the strongest and tallest of the Edain. Hador, "peer of elven lords" followed by phsyical description of his house in LQS 2, circa 1958. See Túrin and his multiple descriptions, The Children of Húrin (Narn) circa 1955 as :

- There he heard a strange tale that went among them. A tall and lordly Man, or an Elf-warrior, some said, had appeared in the woods, and had slain one of the Gaurwaith, and rescued the daughter of Larnach whom they were pursuing.

- ... and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: tall, dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor.

Or Tuor, UT, 1950:

- "Then Voronwe led Tuor towards the light, and as they drew near many Noldor, mail-clad and armed, stepped forward out of the darkness and surrounded them with drawn swords. And Elemmakil, captain of the Guard, who bore the bright lamp, looked long and closely at them.

'This is strange in you, Voronwe/ he said. 'We were long friends. Why then would you set me thus cruelly between the law and my friendship? If you had led hither unbidden one of the other houses of the Noldor, that were enough. But you have brought to knowledge of the Way a mortal Man - for by his eyes I perceive his kin."

"perhaps" no, your opinion is vague, the text is talking about physical characteristics, the note is for that - while their youth lasted, the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery. This was just another evidence among the many I brought, but the main point was to show you the evolution of the tale which you said "nothing contradicted" after citing a pre-LotR, QS quote, later directly revised in LQS 2 (circa 1958) by Tolkien, where the quote "They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves" is literally dropped. From "taller and stronger" to "almost indistinguishable" is a clear difference here, It's no different than Tolkien suddenly describing the house of Bëor as "almost indistinguisable" to house Hador except for the hair, after saying they are stronger (bigger) and taller, you would find It strange at minimum.

The quote "... for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory". The word "for" is a clear indication of psychological, quite different from being alike ONLY while looking young...

You write: " broader " is not " taller " and "Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among [the folk of Bëor], and most were broader and more heavy in build." are words from "Of Dwarves and Men", so it seems to me that Hadorians are "taller" and Beorians are "broader".

R. Another example of me showing you the evolution of the mythology, nothing else, that was the purpose of this comment as the people of Bëor went from lean to broad, different concepts even from LotR to be honest, not consistant in this case. Your quotes to justify the tallest of the children of Eru in Beleriand are from revised quotes pre-LotR time.

You write: "on the form and words, this § could talk about the entire descent of Elros and therefore take into account the Dunedain of the 3rd Age who are still smaller (Aragorn measures 6 ft 6, which is the minimum of the Eldar)"

"on the substance, it is possible that the effect of elven blood is not so much to simply add cm mathematically, but to allow a better body potential and therefore, that people with elven blood find themselves being taller than they would have been, and thus “a little above the average” of their people."

R. Aragorn was still taller than Boromir (preserving the difference) for example, though not sure It means anything really. The point of the note is regarding beards which is not an specific "doom" from Eru, of being far from their now non-existent home, only height and lifespan are. In other words the elven gene regarding height and lifespan will be worthless once the Númenóreans are doomed in these two characterists, however being beardless is a non factor regarding the blessings of Eru. Also, the elven genes in regards to height diminishes too over time, for elves AND men. But considering your view, she is no different than in regards to men with far off Númenórean descent being taller than the norm, but in each passing generation getting smaller, the gene is there but is diminishing because of the doom and mixed blood from the next generations, but the gene of being about 7 feet tall in origin is still there, though doomed. Eventually even the elven gene in regards to beards (the more lasting one) will be gone.

No, It's directly mentioned that the elven gene makes you beardless (because they are) and live longer (because they live) but the topic of height is coincidentally and specifically NOT because the Royal Eldar were taller ? Ummm

SECOND PART

As I've already mentioned, your quotes from pre-LotR narratives are directly revised, the concepts there are not the same from the later quotes that you mention, they can not be put together in the name of consistency alone.

1) Seems reasoanable. But only first age and perhaps beggining of the second. Diminishment is still active in ME, specially by the TA, the age of Men. Noldor and Eldar are somewhat similar in height you can almost asumme they are of the same size category in regards to Tolkien's view, almost 7 feet tall.

2) It says "no greater than the stature of the Eldar" and your conclusion is that they are a little taller? The house of Beör is not particulary tall (if even tall) and definitely not at least 6 ft. 6 in height. Makes no sense.

Let me be clear or rather Tolkien be clear, the Eldar are all somewhat similar in height, even the Sindar could "hardly be told apart" (circa 1960, HoMe, vol 11, Quendi and Eldar) from the exiles. The Noldor being called specifically in that passage can't possibly mean the house of Bëor is almost 7 feet tall... That is why in Dwarves and Men essay Tolkien cites all Eldar not just the Noldor, aka the name "halfing" would be of compare to most Sindar as well, or at least from those of earlier ages.

A) Yes the text from 1937, QS, pre-LotR, mentioned "elves" but probably meant the elves of Beleriand aka Eldar mostly. This text was later directly revised in LQS 2 circa 1958, towards no comparison to any elf at all. Why? Because in the evolution of the mythos the elves got taller, specially those in the first age. The only comparison we have later on (1969) is of the Hadoreans closely resembling the Eldar while they were not old, same text the Eldar are in general close to 7 feet tall.

3) True. And they all grew to the same average later.

4) Old text, revised and changed, no argument can be made here from that. The rest is already corrupted.

You assume the Hadoreans (by far the largest house 3:1, actually far more, in comparison with house 1) grew in height while in bliss proportionally with those of Bëor (resided in the north-west, text H) and not BOTH getting into a similar (though taller than in origin) height. Those are simply elements described from their former Edain houses (when they were not mixed even) not that the differences in height remained as they all grew to almost 7 feet tall in average (the royals being taller), and still that would be an argument for Númenóreans not Hadoreans.

Númenóreans are taller than pure-blood Hadoreans, including those with Bëor descent. Where do you think the 7 feet height information comes from? from the survivors and elf-friends in ME out of Númenor as in text H Tolkien cites Arnorians from the House of Elendil, descent from house of Bëor, as being 7 feet frequently, creators of the word "halfling". So Númenóreans were equally blessed by Eru and their sons were taller than ANY of the sons born in ME (including those of house Hador that fled Beleriand or stayed in Eriador and never reached It), they are the Kings of Men. The blessing part here is important, everyone was blessed and got taller than they ever were as any people, the elements here of the Edain houses gave way to Númenórean's elements, though most were Hadoreans in ancestrality anyway and those even invaded Valinor. Elendil, the tall (nearly 8 feet tall) is an example of that for he was tecnically from the house of Bëor. Either you acknowledge that fact or says he is that tall exclusively because of Eldar genes, which would make my case even better.

So basically the smaller and less numerous (by far in comparison to house 3) kind in Númenor is almost or about 7 feet tall, the royals (which are from the house of Hador actually) and nobles of Númenor who are generally taller are 7 feet tall for sure on average (see Isildur description), but the majority (Hadorean descent) are well over 7 feet and yet the average is still almost or about 7 feet?? You are reading too much into It, too many assumptions to fit your narrative. If you are in Númenor you will grow in height an body and become a Númenórean, even if you are one of the very few with Halethian ancestry, you will get to 7 feet tall.

Your point is basically saying that the first house was over 6 ft 6 (but not quite 7') in height even before growing in Númenor and that their members could RARELY reach the height of anyone from the folk of Hador, which would make the Hadoreans the tallest of all Children of Eru by far (nearly 8 feet tall? after Númenor), yet still shorter than Thingol and Turgon or maybe even Argon (though maybe another concept) ...

I disagree more now than before to be honest. The discussion turned into Hadoreans being substantially over 7 feet tall and their later Númenórean's direct descendants maybe even taller? I mean we are too far off the mark here.

The heights in ME regarding LotR , appendices, and CONSISTENT essays with It:

Gandalf (5'6") lower than the average of men in TA < folk kin to the house of Haleth, short, broad and "swarthier" (Bree, Dunlendings, white mountains folk) <= house of Haleth < house of Bëor <<<< house of Hador (prime) <= Eldar in their prime (Sindar, Vanyar, Nandor, Falmari) <= Númenóreans = Noldor in their prime.

Royal Noldorin are the tallest of all in general. It is no coincidence that the tallest of the Children of Eru: Thingol, Turgon or maybe even Argon (Royals of 7 feet tall people) gave the genes (before diminishing) to the tallest members of the Númenóreans, those who are said to reach 7 feet tall more often than the others "especially in the royal and noble houses" (H). None whatsoever.

I appreciate your answer and your points I read them all carefully and your english is fine indeed. I would still suggest that the original edit in the page of the House of Hador, in regards to them being taller than the elves of Belerind, be edited. As none of their members are in fact the tallest, not in comparison to the first or even the second of the Eldar. You can at least see how debatable and inconsistent that statement can be, specially with post-LotR revisions, used largely in The Silmarillion.

Have a good day sir. If the next reply is as big as the prior I'm not sure I'll be able to answer, I've already spent hours of my time on this :) Kaue Tadaieski (talk) 19:18, 28 October 2025 (UTC)

I hope I understood your answers well :) And I hope it would be shorter to answer ! :)

0) I do not adhere to your logic about the size of Turgon, which implies the size of the Numenoreans because it will only be present in the royal lineage, not in the entire population. It is the entire population that has an average of 7 feet, similar to the Noldor.

a) You are right about the interpretation of text C, but I do not see how it contradicts the fact that the Hadorians would be taller than the Eldar, even the Noldor, because it says:

1) the Beorians are not taller than the Eldar because the Noldor are as tall as the Numenoraeans will be

2) the Hadorians are taller than the Beorians

According to these elements, the Hadorians could be taller or smaller than the Noldor. The question is not determinable with these elements alone.

b) The Akallabêth (§6) describes the height of the Numenoreans as : “they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sounds of Middle-earth”

Personally, I understand that this remark applies to the 2nd Age, during the era of existence of Numenor and especially of contact and influence of the Numenoreans on ME, and not for the whole history (past and future) of Middle-earth. This feeling is reinforced by the expression 'sons of ME' : we talk about descendants.

Is there another quote that I missed and which would say that the Hadorians are not taller than the Numenoreans ?

c) You write : « Númenóreans are the tallest of Men whom tales tell ? Soon we will be arguing that Tuor and even Huor are taller than Elendil ? »

R : Regarding the fact that the Numenoreans are the tallest Humans the world has ever seen, cf my remark in b) above.

Afterwards, I don’t see the point of talking about the exceptional size of certain individuals when we talk about an average in a population. But yes, Tuor should be taller than Elendil since he is described in Narn I Chîn Hurin as the tallest of the Edain.

d) I do not dispute the fact that some Edain (Beorians? Hadorians? both? I find that note 47 and the sentence with which it is associated, do not allow to decide the subject with certainty; what do you think? ) can be almost indistinguishable from the Eldar (the 'almost' should not be forgotten). But I don’t see how this prevents the Hadorians from being, on average, a little taller than the Eldar and therefore how it is an argument.

And I don’t think that the « almost » refers to the fact that the Edain fade quickly because it’s the “young members of the House” who ”were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar”, and not the Edain in general, regardless of their age.

Moreover, in his letter 131 (1951), Tolkien writes: “The Númenóreans [...] became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguable from the Elves”. If we follow your logic, would this means that there is no difference in size between the Hadorians (or even the Beorians, since note 47 is not clear) and the Numenoreans? Or do you think that this quote is too old to be related to note 47 (which dates from 1969)?

e) I understand your point of view when you estimate that there is a clear change between "taller and stronger" to "almost indistinguishable", but I do not adhere to it so that Hadorians should necessarily be smaller than Eldar. The situation let a possibility that Tolkien imagined the Hadorians really much taller in the 40's, and then changed his mind to imagine them just a little taller (and strong? ) than the Eldar. Are you disagree with this possibility ?

And as much as it is clear that Tolkien changed his mind about the description of the Beorians (from 'lean' to 'broad'), its possible change of mind regarding the size of the Hadorians seems to me much less obvious and even less explicit.

The only recent element possibly comparing the size of the Eldar and the Hadorians indicates that the Hadorians would be almost indistinguishable from the Eldar (and probably from the Noldor since it is mainly with them that they are associated). Text G

The previously Tolkien’s idea was that the Hadorians were taller than the Elves, without knowing how much, I perceive a situation compatible with both if Hadorians are, on average, somewhat taller than the Eldar, but not to the point where we can no longer say that these 2 populations are 'almost indistinguishable'.

As for the Sindar (Teleri), there again, the comparison with the Noldor admits a certain variation by the 'hardly be told apart'.

These adverbs (hardly, almost) allow (and admit) a slight but significant variation in appearances which can therefore be applied to size averages.

2) Perhaps I misexplained my point about the Beorians : I understand from text C that the Beorians are not taller than the Eldar of Beleriand (=Teleri + Noldor) because of the Noldor. It is therefore that the Noldor are taller than the Teleri and that the Beorians have a size smaller than the Noldor, but perhaps still taller than that of the Teleri (otherwise, no need to specify 'For the Noldor indeed were tall as [...]').

You write : « That is why in Dwarves and Men essay Tolkien cites all Eldar not just the Noldor, aka the name "halfing" would be of compare to most Sindar as well, or at least from those of earlier ages. »

R: I don’t agree: why does Tolkien bother to specify '(especially those of Noldorin descent)' if it doesn’t matter? For me, this implies, on the contrary, that there is a difference of size, once again, slight, but sufficiently noticeable for Tolkien to feel the need to specify in this context "(especially those of Noldorin descent)".

4) You write : « You assume the Hadoreans (by far the largest house 3:1, actually far more, in comparison with house 1) grew in height while in bliss proportionally with those of Bëor (resided in the north-west, text H) and not BOTH getting into a similar (though taller than in origin) height. »

R: No, I don’t assume at all that the Hadorians grew up on the island. I say that the sizes of the Beorians and Hadorians have stabilized on a common average due to mixing; the Hadorians would therefore have decreased in size. I do not consider that blessing makes them grow because no text talks about it.

That said, I quite like the interpretation saying that with Eru’s blessing, the Numenoreans have become the greatest Humans the world has ever seen. I find it very "Tolkienian" too. But if the blessing makes all the Numenoreans arrive at about 7 feet high, why is this not the case (at first glance) for the Druedain present on the island?

And as you may have read above, I do not think that the average size of the pure-blooded Hadorians in Beleriand is "by far" larger than that of the Noldor/Eldar; just enough for it to be noticeable. If I had to give a value, I would say 2-4 inches more, for example (so an average of 7 ft 2-4), just as we could imagine that the Sindar are on average smaller than the Noldor by 2-3 inches also (so an average of 6 ft 7-8)

You write : “So basically the smaller and less numerous (by far in comparison to house 3) kind in Númenor is almost or about 7 feet tall, [...] but the majority (Hadorean descent) are well over 7 feet and yet the average is still almost or about 7 feet??”

R: I do not agree with the idea that the Beorians and Halethians of Numenor measure approximately 7 ft when arriving in Numenor. The Beorians would, in my opinion, be a little smaller (between 6 ft 6 and 7 ft), and the Halethians still a little smaller. The Hadorians would be a little taller than 7 ft upon arriving in Beleriand, but the entire population would have already started to decrease in size due to mixing with other Edain before the arrival in Numenor: this is what the text G indicates. So it doesn’t seem to me to cause any problem to say that on average, Numenoreans measure 7 ft.

So overall, it now seems to me that the comparison of size between the Hadorians and the tallest of the Eldar in Middle-earth (Noldor? and I am indeed talking about the average size of a population, Thingol and Turgon are indeed the largest Children of Eru) is subject to interpretation. Depending on how we analyze Tolkien’s work during his life, we can estimate that the Hadorians are smaller, of the same size or taller than the Eldar.

For my part, I remain on the idea that they are slightly taller, notably because this 1st idea of Tolkien is not explicitly contradicted later. Moreover, even though I find pleasant, the idea that Numenoreans are the tallest of the Edain of all ages, the lack of explicit text indicating this and the fact that it does not seem to impact the Druedain present on the island makes me reject the idea.

Regarding the edition, perhaps it would be acceptable for everyone to mention this difference of interpretation in the article?

Thank you very much for the discussion in any case :) . Erendis (talk) 19:38, 1 November 2025 (UTC)