Talk:Pools of Ivrin

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Latest comment: 17 October 2011 by Morgan

We also have Eithel Ivrin. Perhaps merge them both to Ivrin? Otherwise we need disambiguation, and perhaps an article for "Falls of Ivrin".--Morgan 00:16, 16 October 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes to merge, but not sure what they should be merged into. Not convinced it should be Ivrin, to be honest. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 17:35, 16 October 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'll try to find time next week to investigate the topic.--Morgan 20:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The topic is a bit complicated! If we want to uphold a conceptual distinction between for example "Eithel Ivrin" and the "Pools of Ivrin", we seemingly need to force an interpretation on the texts.

What Tolkien clearly states is that the name Ivrin refers to the source of the river Narog. The problem is that the details of this river-source are variously described:

  • Spring and pools
    • "the spring near to the pools of Ivrin, whence the swift river Narog rose." (Silm, Ch. 13)
  • Falls:
    • "And the River Narog rose in the falls of Ivrin in the southern face of Dor-l√≥min, ..." (Silm, Ch. 14)
    • "...and they journeyed beside Narog to his source in the Falls of Ivrin." (Silm, Ch. 14)
  • Springs:
    • "Eithel Ivrin, the springs whence Narog rose" (Silm, Ch. 21)

So, does the name Ivrin, or should we say the source of the river Narog, refer to "spring and pools", "fall", or "springs"? Perhaps the issue becomes a little clearer if we look at the following two quotes:

"Where once the fair pool of Ivrin had lain in its great stone basin carved by falling waters, and all about it had been a tree-clad hollow under the hills, now he saw a land defiled and desolate. The trees were burned or uprooted; and the stone-marges of the pool were broken, so that the waters of Ivrin strayed and wrought a great barren marsh amid the ruin. All now was but a welter of frozen mire, and a reek of decay lay like a foul mist upon the ground." (UT, I Of Tuor)
"When twenty years of the Sun had passed, Fingolfin King of the Noldor made a great feast; and it was held in the spring near to the pools of Ivrin, whence the swift river Narog rose, for there the lands were green and fair at the feet of the Mountains of Shadow that shielded them from the north." (Silm, Ch. 13)

The details thus seem to be: there is certain body of water which seems to be of special importance. Apparently this is what is variously called "the fair pool of Ivrin" (UT), and referred to as the "spring near to the pools of Ivrin" in Silm. Perhaps this is also what Gwindor is refererring to by the name "Ivrin's lake":

"Ivrin's lake is endless laughter. She is fed from crystal fountains unfailing, and guarded from defilement by Ulmo, Lord of Waters, who wrought her beauty in ancient days" (Silm, Ch 21).

And, as we could see in the quote from UT, falling waters had carved the stone basin of this particular body of water. Surrounding this well and falls, were a number of pools. It seems to be unknown (or open for discussion), if the Narog rose directly from this well/spring/lake, or from various confluences between the other surrounding pools (a theory maybe corroborated by the quote "the springs whence Narog rose" Silm, Ch. 21). Perhaps there were more waterfalls in the area, as the river-source is also referred to as the "Falls of Ivrin".

So, then, how do we deal with the issue of articles? For which concepts do we need individual articles? Encyclopedia of Arda has four articles; the Thain's Book has one entry (Eithel Ivrin). --Morgan 18:38, 17 October 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]