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Latest comment: 14 June 2023 by Noone in topic Saruman as a Sauron's minion

Saruman's Arrival[edit source]

I think the change from "Saruman arrived alone" to "Saruman [arrived] with Radagast" touches upon the matter of canonicity. There are different versions of the history of the arrival of the Istari. --Earendilyon 07:13, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

I'll have to research the matter more so I can refresh my memory. Maybe it would be beneficial to mention both possibilities and their sources so as to let the reader decide? --Hyarion 12:28, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

Would anyone else consider it worthwhile to separate the description of Saruman's powers from his history and personality? --Ted C 12:07, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

I think that would be a great idea. --Hyarion 12:21, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

Revisiting this very old discussion — I checked on the citation of Appendix B for the statement "Saruman arrived alone in a ship at Mithlond (the Grey Havens) in Lindon around the year 1000 of the Third Age, and only Círdan knew his identity and his origin." Appendix B says neither that Saruman arrived alone, nor that Círdan was uniquely aware of his identity or his origin. Rather, Appendix B is hazy on the manner of the Istari's arrival, though I believe it implies they arrived as a group. Additionally, it only specifically indicates that Círdan had any particular insight into Gandalf's origin and fate, not Saruman's (though it doesn't preclude any additional knowledge on Círdan's part). Is there a different citation for the arrival of Saruman that backs up the current text, or should this be rewritten to conform to Appendix B? -- 01:35, 16 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Saruman's Ring[edit source]

Hi, I was reading Saruman's article and it's good but there is something I would like to ask. In the "Chief of the White Council" you have stated that Saruman HAD MADE a ring of power by using the knowledge of the noldor of former Eregion to enchant he's speaking voice. I would like to know WHERE and HOW have you came up with this knowledge because i have read a lot about middle earth and i have never found that Tolkien would have stated that Saruman had knowledge about making a ring of power or actualy made one. Also Where could he have made it? Orthanc or Isengard hadn't great forges before orcs came there and i doubt that forge any made by orc would be hot enough to make a ring of power. Aromez



I think you raise a valid point, Aromez. Although nowhere it is stated when he made a ring (as far as I know, at least) he did once call himself "Ring-maker", in his conversation with Gandalf, prior to taking the latter hostage: "... I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"
Something I noticed myself in the paragraph "Chief of the White Council" is the following sentence: "At this council-meeting Gandalf (for the first time) revealed that he suspected that Saruman desired to possess the One Ring." I think this is not correct. I don't think Gandalf would have revealed in the presence of Saruman his suspicions.
~ Earendilyon 20:33, 28 November 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have found the text about Saruman saying his ringmaker but i doupt he had actualy made one. Had he made lesser ring of power he could have quickly made a new one ring, rather than waste time in findign one. When Saruman stated that he was ring maker, I think it was more of propaganda than true, afterall he was a liar and great speaker. In finnish Lord of the rings book's First words Tolkien sayid, " Had my story been allorgy to the Great War, One ring would not have been destroyd but used againts Sauron, also Saruman would have traveled to Mordor and found a way to make one ring and eventualy would have made one". (this is my own translation from finnish lord of the rings book, it may not be same from word to word in english text but quite near). So in this text Tolkien makes clearly point that Saruman Didn't make a ring of power or had any knowledge how to make one.

About Gandalf sucpicion towards Saruman is not maybe so non canon. During the last meeting Saruman had insulted Gandalf about his smoking and hobbit knowledge. So Gandalf in turn poked 9 smaller smoke rings and one bigger. Saruman thought that Gandalf knew his madnes to find the one ring and had made warning not to try to find the one ring and also hinted that he had some knowledge were the one ring was. This was all Sarumans own sucpicion but i think that Gandalf indeed made warning to Saruman but not openly and didnt realy thougth that Saruman had betrayed them. i found ths knowledge from the book of Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. Aromez



Although this is certainly not a discussion board, I'd like to go on a bit further in this discussion nevertheless. The original text of the Foreword you retranslated from Finnish runs like this:
The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.
I read it as saying that in case someone had tried to use the One Ring, that person would become enslaved by it, while Saruman would make use of the ensuing chaos to get the last pieces of information he needed to make a Great Ring for himself. However, this does not mean that he did not have the ability to create a lesser Ring, nor does it mean that he did not make one.
With regard to Gandalf warning Saruman: the stories from The Unfinished Tales contradict a bit with what we know from The Lord of the Rings. In the chapter The Council of Elrond Gandalf tells that he did not have real suspicions against Saruman before entering Isengard, otherwise he would not have heeded Saruman's invitation. The 'warning' with the smoke rings (the story doesn't say it were nine small smoke rings, btw) during the meeting of the White Council (not the last meeting, but one earlier) can in this light be seen as a warning against the power of the One Ring and against too deep a study of Ring Lore.
~ Earendilyon 09:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Then only one question remains. Why Tolkien never gave us more information about Sarmun's supoused ring? The only information we have is Saruman's own "word's" as a ringmaker. And that he afer Sauron himself knew more than anyone else about the rings of power. So i give up, it's possible that Saruman had made a lesser ring of power but we never can be sure about it. But still just possible not cannon. Also i think that Saruman wouldn't have made a lesser ring of power just to enchant his speaking voice. He was pouwerfull and skillful speaker even after Gandalf stripped of Saruman's power. The ring would have maybe enchated his other wizard powers. By the way Earendylion the text you used is completely same what i used, i'm not just so good translator and dont have english lord of the rings =)

~ Aromez 11:20, 30 November 2009

Saruman had made a Ring, he called himself a Ring-Maker and he weared a Ring at Orthanc when Gandalf meeted him.

“‘Hij [Saruman] droeg een Ring aan zijn vinger.’”

I've only the Dutch quote but in English it is:

He [Saruman] weared a Ring at his finger-- 16:30, 30 November 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hey, fellow Dutchman! I took the liberty to rearrange this discussion a bit, so as to make it clearer.
I looked for the original text and your translation is almost correct, but for the capital R: But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger. This to me points to a lesser ring rather than a Ring of Power.
@ Aromez: not all can be told in a story of course, otherwise a book would become too long and too tiresome to read. Furthermore, 'loose ends' give extra depth to a story: "hey, there's more than just what we read here!"
~ Earendilyon 16:09, 1 December 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First Quote[edit source]

I reckon we need to change the opening quote of Treebeard. I think we need one that shows how powerful it is and I do not think the current one does him justice. What do you guys think.

The opening quote is of course about Saruman as we know him best, but doesn't tell the whole story. If you want another (better) quote, you can change the present one. What about the following?
[Saruman] is great among the Wise. He is the chief of my order and the head of the Council. His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, and he takes ill any meddling. The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making (....) - Gandalf
~ Earendilyon 09:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I completely agree with you. The current one describes only a small aspect of Saruman whereas Gandalf's quote gives a good overview. -- Eldarion Telcontar 20:05, 30 November 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Section[edit source]

Shouldn't/Couldn't the "Politics" section be summarized in the "History" section? --LorenzoCB 15:19, 28 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree, it seems unusual compared to other character articles. It's also not sourced very well. --Oromë 16:05, 28 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Saruman as a Sauron's minion[edit source]

The edits made by LordoftheEarth are solely focused on exalting Sauron, and in this case on diminishing Saruman, being constantly rewritten to describe the character as a minion obedient to Sauron. I'm not into Third Age affairs, but this is not the image I had of the character and I don't trust such clearly biased edits. This article needs a good revision if not a complete rewriting. All aside, this already needed improvement with references and names. --LorenzoCB (talk) 14:00, 24 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree. I went into the discussions specifically to see if anyone else had picked up on how strange this article felt, then made an account only to reply in affirmation. Noone (talk) 15:05, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I could guess who expanded on the original introduction with reasonable certainty. Just confirmed that guess now by digging through the edit history. I rather liked it before. It was succinct, and in my opinion captured Saruman's character well. Noone (talk) 15:46, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]