Talk:Void

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Latest comment: 8 May 2023 by Ar-Zigûr in topic Void beyond Eä VS "spaces" beyond Arda

Void beyond Eä VS "spaces" beyond Arda

We read that he [Morgoth] was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar. It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.
* [footnote to the text] Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the ‘Void’, as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Eä, with the conception of vast spaces within Eä, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda’ (which we should probably call the Solar System).

In the article it is stated: "The Void thus in that context refers to the vast distant empty spaces of Eä. This was often confused by Elves and Men with the Void that existed before the creation of Eä." However, I think it is misreading. Specific to the Void, this passage from the Myths Transformed, quoted above, tells us that - while men and elves often thought of the "Void" as simply an empty, yet physical, space - it was in fact the lack of... well, everything. Like Tolkien said, it is "the state of Not-being", where Morgoth remains, not just space within Eä (i.e. "Time and Space"), which separated Arda from other worlds. --Ar-Zigûr (talk) 08:03, 7 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree. The article also claims that the Void is the "uninhabited space" beyond Ea; however, since the Void is both timeless and spaceless (for lack of a better word), it is a nonsensical statement.
P.S. It should be noted, however, that much of the cosmology and metaphysics found in Myths Transformed is predicated on the 'Round World' legendarium, and thus differs from the published Silmarillion - for example, in The Silmarillion, before the world is made round in the Second Age, it is essentially the sole 'planet' (or rather a 'disk' enclosed within a firmament of sorts) within Ea, while in much of the Myths Transformed, Ea contains from the very beginning* the Earth, other planets, the Sun, and all the other celestial bodies that exist within our real-world universe.
However, even then the flat Arda was still enclosed by Ilmen, where the Sun, Moon, stars, constellations, and planets (like Carnil, for example) remained. So I think the Door of Night separated Ilmen from the Timeless Void. If Arda was round at its very beginning, then I suppose 'the vast spaces within Eä' were exactly Ilmen, i.e. outer space beyond the Earth's atmosphere and between the celestial bodies. --Ar-Zigûr (talk) 08:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]