Celebrimbor
Hi AmonGwareth! Back in the day in the distant 2022, I volunteered to remake the 'Celebrimbor' article, and I decided, at least as a temporary solution to the textual mess, to relegate the 'Celebrimbor revolted against Galadriel and Celeborn'-storyline to the 'Other versions of the legendarium' section of the article.
Before any major additions to the main section of the article, I'd like there to be a discussion about them. I will start a Discord discussion about this particular (and overdue) element of Celebrimbor's textual history - if you have a Discord account please join us! IvarTheBoneless (talk) 13:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks! I do have a Discord. Yeah, the Second Age storyline can be messy, but it does make Celebrimbor's page more consistent with Galadriel's wiki page. Plus it doesn't have to be elaborated on much! AmonGwareth (talk) 03:46, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Rhudaur
I reverted your edits on the Rhudaur page, because there were several problems.
You marked your two edits on the Rhudaur page as minor edits in the minor edit checkbox. Please be aware that according to the information on Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Help:Editing and Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Help:Minor_edit a "check to the minor edit box signifies that only superficial differences exist between the current and previous versions. Examples include typographical corrections, corrections of minor formatting errors, and reversion of obvious vandalism. A minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute." Your edits did not only correct typographical errors, minor formatting errors or revert obvious vandalimsm and do not qualify as minor edits, because they required a review and could be disputed. One of your edit deleted the content that Cardolan and Rhudaur also desired "the land westwards towards Bree", which is content from Appendix A from the section about Eriador. The replacement of "on it" with "Amon Sûl" was not an improvement, because the English name Weathertop is mentioned before and it is not explained before that Amon Sûl is another name for Weathertop. There is no need to explain that Amon Sûl is another name for Weathertop on the Rhudaur page so "on it" referring to Weathertop works fine in the article about Rhudaur. In addition, deleting "of the North" after "the other two palantíri" was not an improvement, because there were also palantíri in the south (i.e. in Isengard and in Gondor) so it is better to specify that those two palantíri were "of the North". Furthermore the replacement of "also held" with "already held" was unnecessary and not an improvement, because "already" seems to imply that the other two palantíri of the North had not been held by Arthedain before and had been acquired by Arthedain later so that they were held by Arthedain "already" at that point in time. In addition the replacment of "and the other two palantíri" with ", while the other two palantíri" also diminishes the fact that the reason for desiring Weathertop (Amon Sûl) with its palantír was that the other two palantíri of the North were also held by Arthedain. Inserting a comma before "Rhudaur and Cardolan" would have been OK. Replacing ", because" with a full stop after Weathertop and creating a new sentence that starts with "This was due to the fact that" would also have been OK. I hope this feeback helps to explain why I reverted your edits and what you could consider in future edits. --Akhôrahil (talk) 07:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- This sentence is an objective mess:
- "There was often strife among the three kingdoms, because Rhudaur and Cardolan desired to possess the Weather Hills and the land westwards towards Bree, especially Weathertop, because the tower on it contained the most important Palantír of the North and the other two palantíri of the North were also held by Arthedain."
- You can leave it if you want, but it's filled with run-ons and sounds terrible to the ear (along with repetitive word choices like "because", which is a big no-no in English grammar). You need to split this up and change the syntax. AmonGwareth (talk) 00:46, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Or use the invaluable semicolon, which is used to break up overcrowded and (in this case) convoluted sentences! Also, saying "palantir of the north" twice in quick succession is a) redundant and b) sounds bad to the ear. You aren't supposed to reuse words in sentences if you can avoid it, and reusing the exact same word choice in quick succession is very problematic. Saying "of the north" once gives the sentence enough context to not then repeat it again two seconds later. Again, it's awkward, and you can trust readers to pick up on obvious context. AmonGwareth (talk) 04:36, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Disaster of the Morannon
I reviewed your edit on the Disaster of the Morannon page. This edit should also not have been marked as a minor edit. It was OK that you added a comma after "Later" and that you inserted "send a" before "message" and "to" after "message". However, you also inserted "then" before "at once", which changes the meaning and which implies that Adrahil was first ordered to retreat and ordered to only send a message to Eärnil afterwards. However the text of the subchapter The Northmen and the Wainriders of the chapter Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan in Unfinished Tales does not say that. The text implies that the orders, which were carried by messengers from Minohtar to Adrahil did not have a sequence what to do first and what to do next (i.e. then). The text explicitly says that "Adrahil should at once send messengers to find Eärnil", which implies that he should do this immediately and not wait to send messengers to find Eärnil after he had withdrawn to Ithilien. Please be careful before adding words, which may impact the meaning of the information on a page. --Akhôrahil (talk) 08:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Quest of Erebor
I reviewed your edits on the Quest of Erebor change and reverted them. Your edit introduced the speculation that Bilbo's initial task was to steal as much treasure from Smaug's hoard as possible, as well as recover lost family heirlooms and phrased it like a fact. It also introduced the speculation that Gandalf's foreboding showed that he instinctively knew that Bilbo would be essential in vanquishing Smaug and restoring the Kingdom Under the Mountain and phrased it like a fact. The text of the chapter The Quest of Erebor in Unfinished Tales does not say that what Bilbo's initial task was. It merely says that "The existence of a secret door, only discoverable by Dwarves, made it seem at least possible to find out something of the Dragon’s doings, perhaps even to recover some gold, or some heirloom to ease his heart’s longings." This sentence refers to Thorin. It merely says that Gandalf wanted Thorin to take along Bilbo. It only says that Gandalf knew in his heart or had a foresight that Bilbo had to accompany Thorin that the quest would be a failure. At that point the aim of the quest was to steal from Smaug's hoard and the text does not say that Gandalf had any foresight that Smaug would be killed. The text says nothing about stealing as much treasure as possible and does not mention "family heirlooms" (plural). Please be mindful of what the text in the source says and what it does not say. --Akhôrahil (talk) 09:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Except Gandalf had no interest in the Quest of Erebor outside of the fact that he wanted to get rid of Smaug. He knew there could be an alliance between Sauron and Smaug, which is why he took an interest in the quest at all. He didn't want Bilbo to go on the Quest for no reason, he wanted him to go on the quest to bring about Smaug's ruin.
- Let me ask you: what are the goals of the Quest of Erebor? What was Thorin's intention? Was it to reclaim some gold? Somehow reclaim his kingdom? In "The Hobbit", it's clear they have a vague notion about wanting to reclaim their hoard, but it's never explained what they planned to do about the live dragon in Erebor. When Gandalf says "if you take Bilbo with you, your Quest will succeed." What do you think he means by this? That if Bilbo goes with the Dwarves that Erebor will be reclaimed but Smaug will also be alive. No. The only way for the quest to succeed was to destroy the dragon, which is the whole reason why Gandalf was interested in Thorin and Company in the first place. Things don't have to be stated outright in order to pick up on obvious implication. There really isn't any other logical reading.
- Also, this quote:
- "Whatever he thought of Bilbo he would have set out himself. The existence of a secret door, only discoverable by Dwarves, made it seem at least possible to find out something of the Dragon's doings, perhaps even to recover some gold, or some heirloom to ease his heart's longings"
- implies that Thorin had no real intentions of killing Smaug. He would use Bilbo to spy out the place and "perhaps recover some gold or some heirloom." Even if you want to change my wording, it's important to note what Bilbo was tasked with. He wasn't tasked with killing the dragon. He was tasked with burgling some of Smaug's hoard. Without this, the Quest of Erebor has very vague goals and motives. It obviously retcons what's said in "The Hobbit", but there really isn't an overarching goal in "The Hobbit." It's unclear what Bilbo is even supposed to do by looking at that book alone. AmonGwareth (talk) 00:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)