User talk:BartAllen

From Tolkien Gateway

Equating "south" with Harad and men of the south with Haradrim on pages[edit]

You made some edits on the Harad page, the Haradrim page and some more pages dealing with the south. When the sources simply use a term like "south" or "the South" you assume that this is the same as Harad. However this is a speculation and your edits do not diclose it as a speculation. We only know from the General Map of Middle-earth that was included in older editions of The Lord of the Rings that a region that went as far as a bit further south than the bay of Umbar was referred to as "Harad" or "Haradwaith" in Sindarin. We do not know what other regions (for example even further south) people who knew Sindarin would refer to as Harad or Haradwaith. References in The Silmarillion or in the Book of Lost Tales Part one or Two that talks of "south" or "the south" could also refer to southern parts of Beleriand which are below the sea after the War of Wrath, to southern parts of Beleriand, which are not on the map of Beleriand or simply to regions which later became known as Gondor or even to the south of the continent of Aman. For example, I searched for the words "Harad" and "Haradwaith" in the Book of Lost Tales Part Two, which you have indicated as a reference and did not find any use of the words "Harad" or "Haradwaith". In one instance "Men of the South" in the Book of Lost Tales Part Two seems to refer to Romans from Constantinople (The History of Eriol or Aelfwine footnote 26). --Akhorahil 15:22, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Hey there ^_^ Thanks for your post ~ There are many aspects of the term "south" or "the South", and there's naturally a difference if that was let's say south of Mordor/Gondor or south of once Beleriand. Well in the instance of The Book of Lost Tales I referred to it as Harad, as part of Earendil's voyage was deemed to be southern Haradwaith rather than the Dark Lands due to a mentioning of southern Isles beyond that region, and those can only be the hills that became islands mentioning in The Chaining of Melko, which must have been a product of the tumults that lead to the formation of the Inner Seas. I used the words "Harad" and "Haradwaith" as I didn't realise I had couldn't retroactively use a term as such, nor did I know of the footnote #26 as I was sticking to references only to the forests and wilds of the South; one of the two Lamps; the tawny cats of the south and Earendil's venture there --BartAllen 23:15, 21 November 2021 (UTC)