User talk:Quentandil/Heraldry

Want to chat about Tolkien in real-time?

Join our Discord server for discussions, collaboration, and a vibrant community!

Wikitable Header Color

Just a tiny nit, hardcoding the wikitable header to #CCCCCC means that it is a bit hard to read on dark mode. Awesome article! Qalten (talk) 03:49, 21 January 2026 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Small visual suggestion

If you add style="clip-path: circle(50% at 50% 50%);" for circular devices, and style="polygon(50% 0, 100% 50%, 50% 100%, 0 50%);" for diamond-shaped devices, to the center tags, you can cut out the white backgrounds without changing anything to Tolkien's drawings or having to re-upload separate files. Some of them aren't quite perfect since they don't always line up exactly, but even a small white border might be preferable to a completely white background.

Quick example:

Emblem	Holder	Commentary
	Idril Celebrindal	The original manuscript includes sketches and several variations for Idril's devices, four of them colored, but only this one can be considered finished. Tolkien seems to have opted for the one above.
	Gil-galad	The manuscript (a postcard) includes this and below's emblem, both of them not being completely finished, but probably Tolkien would have chosen this, as its design is completely symmetrical, it is more finished and it ingludes Gil-galad written behind it.

Grond (talk) 11:40, 13 August 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I also dabbled with these, initially to get the banners of Gondor based on Tolkien's dusk-jacket design, and then I made some more to round them out. If you like them I can make more (Gondolin? Unfinish Tales?).

Grond (talk) 19:36, 14 August 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi! Thanks for your proposals. I didn't upload the devices with the cropped background because I didn't want to edit Tolkien's drawings and just give them as they are seen in publication. The drawings definitely look better cropped, tho; and the way you propose could be a nice middle point. I'll try it, but I'm afraid most probably some will be cut out a little, and the purpose of the section is showcasing Tolkien's art the best way possible.

About the banners you made, I think we better stick to the shield format, for consistency's sake, but I like those of the trees. Maybe you could remake them with the current format please? The others are good as they are. Quentandil (talk) 09:39, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I deliberately avoided the shield format since I only recall the device of Saruman actually being described as used on shields in LOTR (and I can't really see them using heather shield-derived forms), with Tolkien primarily focusing on banners (plus my own presumption of course that the Dúnedain would take inspiration from Elven heraldry.

For now, you can find attached shield-shaped versions, but I wouldn't mind just doing the entire set consistently (though neither do I want to impose my designs). Though I probably wouldn't approach it like this with the Houses of Gondothlim, which read to me as Tolkien hewing closer to European heraldry in this early stage of the Legendarium. Then again, the explicit mention of a boss led me to interpret them as circular or kite-shaped.🤔

Grond (talk) 11:25, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm aware of what you say, but I'd prefer having all the "In text" section with the same format. This article deals with heraldry, and shields have been the typical place to display it. There is already a disclaimer in the head of the section, because Tolkien does not only mention banners, there are seals, arms, badges and gems.

I love your versions of the White Tree. I don't know why it didn't occur to my copying Tolkien's drawing of it instead of the worn-out version from the movies. Thanks a lot!

Do you think we could include Aragorn's device in Andúril?: "The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes". I think not, but I aspire the article to be the most complete possible, so not sure... Quentandil (talk) 12:40, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Regardless of the shape, I do think Gondolin might warrant a separate section eventually. Thinking of the Crests, since they are mentioned for some of the specific houses in the cited texts (and definitely illustrates how much closer to conventional heraldry this is).

The commonly seen version of the Tree of Gondor online is also a bit imperfect, compared to looking at movie shots directly. Somewhere during the vector tracing, many details got lost, such as the little leaves that show the tree to be flowering (as per the text). Quite unfortunate.

Hm, I think the device on Andúril could definitely be adapted into a personal device for Aragorn, or maybe something like a heraldic badge and I definitely want to see artists take that on (or even do it myself), but I'm not sure if it can with certainty be said to be Aragorn's device, and not just elaborate decoration that the smiths came up with. That doesn't mean it should not go included, but I'd definitely add some weasel words ("depicted on Andúril, potentially a personal device")? 😁

I think that in general, I am wary of making too many suppositions. I.e., we know the crownless banner of Gondor is described as the Royal Banner of Gondor, and the crowned one as the livery of the Heirs of Elendil (as borne by the Citadel Guard and unfurled by Aragorn), but I'm not sure if either can definitely be attributed to be specifically the House of Anarion and Telcontar respectively, or whether Tolkien genuinely meant them to be separate (since the high crown is also Gondorian and both it and the stars are described similarly noteworthy). At the very least, I think that maybe some of the "jumps" made should be clarified? What do you think? Ugh, this would be so much easier if someone else made the jump ans they could be cited, i.e. "so-and-so suggests that…".

Oh, by the way, did you overlook Saruman's S-rune (mentioned in the same place the white hand on a shield is mentioned), or did you just not get around to it yet? Then again, it's analogous to Gandalf's rune so I don't know whether it would make sense as a heraldic shield (as opposed to a more badge-like use), and that again wades into a grey zone.🤔 Grond (talk) 13:09, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I notice you are giving the visual depictions too much weight: they are meant to be a visual support within the "In text" section. Text is the main focus in that section and I hope to include the citations correctly, as I'm not that familiarized with TLOTR. The devices could be portrayed in very different ways, specially some like Aragorn's creative device in Andúril, so I wouldn't be picky about details.

What do you mean with Gondolin having a separate section? If you see details about crests or ornaments, please tell me; you must have noticed its section is not limited to heraldry, but also raiments. Like the rest of the "In text" section, the devices depicted are meant to be supportive to the quoted texts, but I'm open to revise them. Or if you were talking about the Gondolinic raiments in UT, I haven't delved into that yet.

No, I don't forget about Saruman's rune, I felt I had to investigate Gandalf's first.

I'm going out for like 10 days, so you can touch things around if you want, specially adding quotations from TLOTR, which is the most important right now. See you soon! Quentandil (talk) 16:03, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think we have some amount of miscommunication, since some of my core concerns I have raised are purely textual, so I will recap some of what I brought up in plainer terms:

As brought up on Discord, you identify the rayed sun as the Vergina Sun. For the illustration, that is a fine artistic choice (which you could always elucidate on the file description), but what are you basing a direct link in the quote on?
I am a tad uncertain about putting the Royal Banner of Gondor as the House of Anarion and the Livery of Heirs of Elendil as House of Telcontar, without qualifications (such as a note). I think they are fair and logical suppositions, but I would put what we know in the book (Kings of Gondor & Guards of the Citadel + Aragorn respectively) But this is a minor thing.
I am not so much concerned about how the device on Andúril is depicted as I am concerned about how to attribute it. It is a device on Andúril with a crescent Moon, a rayed Sun, and Seven Stars. It is definitely of interest, but anything more specific than that is speculation, no?

And one more that pops up now that I re-read:

The seal of the Stewards, from UT, should that really be seen as of the House of Húrin instead of the office of Stewards? It's a definitely a fine assumption given the heredity of the office, but I would maybe instead link it to Steward of Gondor.

Or do you believe I am being overly cautious?

Concerning crests: in the heraldic achievement, the crest is what's displayed on top of the helmet. So for the House of the Wing, they have swans or gulls, as per the citation. Swallow has feathers, Heavenly Arch an Opal, … But yes, that's at best just an extra column of illustration someday. I haven't read heraldic journals in ages, maybe there's by now something that speculates along similar lines as my assumptions wrt Gondolin being more explicitly aligned with medieval heraldic notions. All I found was the complete opposite, interestingly enough, which was someone's attempt to force the Gondolin devices into the later Elven heraldic rules. Here in French, and English version is apparently published in Hither Shore (journal). Fascinating stuff!

I can definitely provide DTP-backed citations for anything out of LOTR, though I have no 50th Anniversary Edition handy for exact page numbers. I'll see about adding what I can cite, and if I do, I will refrain from making fundamental changes based on the concerns I uttered before, no worries. If your ten days off are for pleasure, I hope you enjoy them! Grond (talk) 18:36, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply[reply]