Forums:Borders of Rohan, Rovanion and Rhûn

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All other kingdoms (eg. Mordor, Gondor, Lindon, etc.) in the West of Middle-earth have obvious geographical borders (eg. Mountains). In the region of Rohan, Rhovanion and Rhûn, however, there are no mountain ranges to seperate them, only rivers and forest. So, my question, where exactly do their borders lie? -- Explorer of Arda 09:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit: Drat. I misspellt "Rhovanion" in the title. How can I fox that?

As for fixing: you could press "Move", but it's not important. We know what you mean.
Rohan has rivers as borders - the Isen (and later the Adorn) in the West, Anduin, Entwash and the Mering stream in the East. Fangorn marked the northern border.
Rhûn and Rhovanion don't have clear borders. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 10:37, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Ah, I see. I thought maby Rhûn and Rhovanion were partly seperated by the River Running, with Rhûn to its east and Rhovanion to its west or something like that.
Quick off topic question. Do you happend to know how the East Sea was formed? -- Explorer of Arda 11:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Quick answer: No, I don't. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 12:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
According to the book I read (the one with the made-up names and mis-labbelings) it was origionally, like the Sea of Helcar, a crater left behind by the destruction of the lamps. The sea grew (somehow and for some reason) into the East Sea (the book called it the "Inner Sea") and split Hyemenor (is that even the Dark Land's real name?) and Middle-earth into two seperate continents.
Is that plausible? I'm just asking, 'cause I wont just believe anything that book says, now that I know it's fanon... -- Explorer of Arda 12:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
It's not mentioned in The Silmarillion, nor, as far as I know in The History of Middle-earth. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 13:01, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Also made up, then (as far as we know). Do you think it's plausible theory for the East Sea's formation? -- Explorer of Arda 13:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
In an older part of the Sil, somewhere in HOME, it is said that the sea was remainent of the sea of Helcar. In latter parts it already existed in the first age. I belief in the second one. I think there are no grounds to protect that argument, i think its just speculation or fanon. BTW Hye means south. So it couldn't be in the east, I think. And in what book al those fanon is?--Amroth 18:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
J.R.R. Tolkien - Ambarkanta Map (colorized).gif

Hyemenor (Southland - aka Darkland) is the southern continent of Arda, directly bellow Middle-earth. The two continents are seperated by the East Sea. It's the sea, not the continets, that lies to the east, though it is technically in the centre of Arda. -- Explorer of Arda 11:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

ow okay, the east sea is fanon, isnt it? --Amroth 14:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)<math>Insert formula here</math>
Not at all!! The East Sea is the sea that devides Middle-Earth form the Dark Land (aka Southland or Hyarmenor). You can see both the Dark Land and the East Sea on the map (of the First Age - by Tolkien himself) below:
(moved to the right) Smeagol
Here's the link to a great map of Arda's northern hemisphere, also during the First Age: You can also see the East Sea there.
That map at the link, isn't it published in the Atlas of Middle-Earth.
Yep. That's why I'm sure the map is authentic. You see? The East Sea isn't Fanon atall! =] -- Explorer of Arda 08:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Than I beg your pardon about that. --Amroth 15:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


BTW: On that map, Mordor, Nurn and the Sea of Rhûn already existed in the First Age. --Amroth 15:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

o0 Are you sure? (Refer to source please) -- Explorer of Arda 11:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
somewhere in the Peoples of Middle-earth. It is also stated here. --Amroth 13:00, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
and that map in the Atlas of ME, is it also in the first edition. I can't find it. --Amroth 13:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
As far as I know it isn’t in the first edition. I don’t have a 1st ed, but have seen one fairly recently. That map draws heavily on source material revealed in the HoMe series, especially in SoMe, which appeared after the 1st ed of the Atlas of Me. — Mithrennaith 04:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
@Amroth: That link you gave me (the "here" one) says that Mordor was created/founded/whatever-Morgoth-did during the Second Age, not the first. o0
@Mithrennaith: I see. I haven't really checked those yet. But, in your opinion, would that First Age map count as canon or fanon? -- Explorer of Arda 06:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
@Explorer of Arda: That is impossible, Morgoth wasn't in Middle-Earth, not even in Arda, at the second age. And I think it was before the sun rised up the first time, because he almost whole time besieged. So how could he do something in Mordor, if I only one time leaved his base, and that was to corrupt Humans.
about that map, I think its canon if the parts aren't contradicted by recenter parts, like that Mordor already existed in the First Age --Amroth 14:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Ok, but does it directly state anywhere that Mordor existed during the First Age? The Sea of Helcar still existed during the First Age and it's widely accepted that Mordor was once part of the Sea of Helcar, or atleast the Sea of Nurnen in Mordor was. -- Explorer of Arda 15:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
The atlas was however published before The Peoples of Middle-earth, where it turned out that the Sea of Rhûn and Mordor existed already in the First Age.

- Mordor

I think that's because few people have read HOME --Amroth 15:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

This is utterly confusing. So either the Sea of Helcar no longer existed in the First Age, or it was located elsewhere. Or, perhaps... Say, how long was the First Age? -- Explorer of Arda 08:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
More then 1000 Valian years (10 sun-years are around 1 valian year), + 600 sun years. The world was made around 2000 Valian Years before the First AGe of the Children of Ilúvatar started.
I think that it was located more in the east. --Amroth 13:10, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
But then it's contradicting the map Tolkien drew himself. And the Sea of Helcar shouldn't have been that far east, because it's at the exact spot where the Tower of Helcar once stood, witch is suposed to have been on the simmetrical centre line of Arda, witch is basically where Mordor is now.
I think Tolkien says somewhere that the land now occupied by Mordor was once submerged under the Sea of Helcar, but I'll have to go double check on that. -- Explorer of Arda 14:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Edit: I'd just like to inform you that the page you told me to go look at says that Mordor was established in the Second Age (S.A 1000, to be exact), not the First Age.
I think it was because of this: J.R.R. Tolkien changed his own mind. --Amroth 11:32, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I see... Kinda like he changed his mind about the numder Balrogs and such? Oh well... -- Explorer of Arda 08:04, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I see it like that --Amroth 13:23, 12 April 2010 (UTC)