Talk:Celebrimbor

From Tolkien Gateway

Second thoughs[edit]

I'm having second thoughts on my assumption that "Celebrimbor" comes from celeb + drambor. While drambor means "clenched fist", as in for punching, paur means a fist as in holding a craft-tool or implement. Does anyone know which is correct? "Drambor" is closer to "-imbor" but the Quenya quárë from Telperinquar is closer to Sindarin paur. --Narfil Palùrfalas 13:24, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth defines it as 'Hand of Silver' or 'Silver Fist' as celebrin = silverlike; bor = hand, fist. Unfortunately drambor doesn't seem to be listed in the book. --Hyarion 13:31, 19 June 2006 (EDT)
My Sindarin dictionary (Dragonflame 2.0 by Hiswelókë; excellent downloadable program by the way) has no entry for bor. The entries for "fist" are drambor and paur. I'm not quite willing to accept bor or paur just yet. Does anyone else have any input? --Narfil Palùrfalas 13:37, 19 June 2006 (EDT)
Taking a second look at The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth, it mentions paur as meaning first or hand. --Hyarion 13:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)
Well, here is the article in the Tolkien Linguistic Dictionary:
Celebrimbor — S-ised form of Telerin Telperimpar, and Q Tyelpinquar; see celeb silver, Telerin adjective telperin, S adjective celebrin silver-like [appx], from KYÉLEP- silver [see Celeborn¹]; see also KWAR- fist, Q qáre, Nol paur, -bor [Etym], Q quárë [the grasp of the smith, not a fighter's fist; [appx]; 'Silver Grasp'; a great Elven smith, maker of the Three Rings of the Elves; devised the name Mithril
I have always found this site trusty enough. Tell me your opinion on it. --Narfil Palùrfalas 13:58, 19 June 2006 (EDT)
Narfil, I think you're right with the word paur. From Hiswelókë's compilation:

tegilbor* [tɛgˈil̡bɔr] n. one skilled in calligraphy, a calligrapher ◇ PM/318, VT/47:8 ◇ tegil+paur

Hope this helps. --Ebakunin 15:13, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

With or without Annatar?[edit]

It says in this article that Celebrimbor made the Three Rings without the knowledge of Sauron. The Silmarillion:Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age differs here. I won't quote the whole three paragraphs here, but it says that Sauron never touched them, but he desired them most due to their powers, among other things. It is clearly against the statement here. Now, I know that the Silmarillion is not always the authority. Is there any writing that contradicts this and supports the article? --Narfil Palùrfalas 16:58, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

Nothing's in the Letters. I'm going to change it, at least temporarily. By the way, do we have an "unverified" template? --Narfil Palùrfalas 18:29, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

Birth (and death)[edit]

I removed references from the article that Cel. was born in Valinor. They are unsourced and at least according to the EoA, no source mentions his birth.

Concerning his death, I read somewhere that his body was mutilated and used as a banner by Sauron's forces; this image backs up my memories. However "Of the Rings of Power" and "Shadows of the Past" don't mention such a detail. Where is this mentioned? Sage 16:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I back you up in the second part too. I think it was from UT, "Galadriel and Celeborn". --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 20:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
You're right.

In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.
J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Unfinished Tales, "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn", "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn"

-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  18:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Shadows of Mordor[edit]

Is there anywhere on Celebrimbor's article that we should include his appearance in the latest Middle-earth video game, Shadows of Mordor? PS; funny, I got the question "What was the name of Sauron's Dark Land?" Pretty appropriate. - OutrightUndead

You should create a "Portrayal in adaptations" section in the article, and a paragraph about the Shadows of Mordor game. You can look in other articles to see the appropriate format for those sections, for example Galadriel#Portrayal_in_adaptations. Sage 16:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Problem of Celebrimbor[edit]

Now...in "The Lord of the Rings" Celebrimbor is said to be a descendant of Fëanor. However, in the later writings he was conceived as a descendant of Daeron. And as it that was not enough Tolkien also played with the idea that he was an elf of Gondolin. And in Tolkien's latest writings he was not a Noldo, but a Telerin elf who accompanied Teleporno (afterwards named Celeborn) and Galadriel in their voyage to Middle-earth...So...I think that article about Celebrimbor should be in the same category as Celeborn (considering the ambiguity of his lineage) Woolly Mammoth 13:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Completely disagree. Note 7 in "Of Dwarves and Men" makes it clear that Tolkien altered The Lord of the Rings in the second edition to specifically refer to Celebrimbor as a descedent of Fëanor. Christopher says quite clearly, in response to the 1968 jottings that Celebrimbor was Telerin, "When my father wrote this he ignored the addition to Appendix B in the Second Edition, stating the Celebrimbor 'was descended from Fëanor'; no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it."
Similarly, Hammond and Scull in A Reader's Companion are unequivocal about his ancestry (see p. 227). As far as I can see, there is no problem here; the difference with Celeborn is that there is an unresolved contradiction acknowledged by everyone (including Christopher) - that is not the case with Celebrimbor. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
There is only one problem with your statement. Christopher Tolkien, for all his efforts and, undoubtedly considering his knowledge of the Tolkien's work, the fact remains that he is NOT J.R.R. Tolkien. As much as I am convinced considering his statement that "no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it would undoubtedly have felt bound by it" this still comes from the words of an editor, and not Tolkien himself.
Speculations, no matter how well-versed in the lore, should be considered suspect. Woolly Mammoth 16:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
As there is vastly more material published by Christopher than by J.R.R.T. himself, I think we are on a very perilous road if we ignore his commentary on his father's writings. Can you name me any Tolkien scholar who thinks that Celebrimbor is anything other than a Noldor, or, indeed, that there is a reasonable debate to be had about his heritage? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 17:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Celebrimbor in Gondolin[edit]

So, I've been examining the various texts relating to Celebrimbor and it seems to me that the version where he was a descendant of Feanor (as in the 2nd edition of the LOTR) who followed him into exile (as in PoME) and later repudiated his father Curufin in Nargothrond (as in the published Silmarillion) is the "definitive" or base version which should go into the main section of the article.

However, I see no non-contrived way to reconcile it with the version where he was a smith of Gondolin. Did he go with Turgon from Vinyamar to Gondolin when it was first established - how did he then appear in Nargothrond while Gondolin was still a secret? Did he fight in the Nirnaeth and then joined the retreating Elves of Gondolin - possibly? But all this is bordering on fanfiction. More to the point, when Tolkien devised this origin of Celebrimbor, he did not imagine him as being descended from Feanor - hence the addition to the 2nd version of LOTR.

All that said, I vote that we move the Gondolin material into OVOTL. (Also, him being in love with Galadriel is also from that same conception I believe - it would make it kind of disturbing if he were a grandson of Feanor, and therefore a first cousin once removed to Galadriel.) - IvarTheBoneless 18:44, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, what should we do about the Elessar stuff? I vote for all of it to go to OVOTL too. - IvarTheBoneless 18:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree, moving the statements to OVOTL seems the reasonable spot for them. The reader can decide how much weight they want to give them. --Hyarion 18:54, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Yes, the Son of Curufin being in Gondolin is a clever way to try to reconcile irreconcilable canon, but there is no way that the canonical son of Curufin could have been a smith in Gondolin (which was a closed city), and I'm not sure why that's privileged over trying to reconcile the versions where he's Telerin or Sindarin with Appendix A. Another vote for moving the Gondolin material to OVOTL (likewise with the Galadriel romance - again the smith of Gondolin version - and the Elessar, which has enough different origins that I'd automatically think it OVOTL). - Undercat 19:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Now that I think of it, I'm also kind of on the fence regarding the whole Celebrimbor usurps Galadriel and Celeborn thing. What do other users here think? - IvarTheBoneless 19:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
It seems a bit of a conundrum, at least to me. Indeed Celebrimbor's partaking in the Nirnaeth and the subsequent retreat to Gondolin would seem the most likely way of entering the city. Either by following that retreat; by being espied by Thorondor and the eagles; or simply by "magic and destiny", it seems certain to me that he would not be denied entry; being kinsman of the king (same as Maeglin and Eöl). Regarding the Elessar, either Celebrimbor or Enerdhil have created it; with the latest version (which says to have been created by Celebrimbor) being written about the same time as the essay "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn", which is freely used as references in the character's respective pages. As Untercat points, it is indeed a clever way to try to reconcile the irreconcilable canon. Hmm. Pretty tough to say, yet I myself vote against moving it to OVOTL. Unsigned comment by Tarkil (talk • contribs).
Ivar, I recommend you to check The History of The Lord of the Rings and identify the first mention of Celembrimbor in the legendarium. I just finished describing the evolution of Galadriel throughtout the composition of TLOTR and it's a very important startpoint for the OVOTL section.--LorenzoCB 20:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)