Does anyone else feel the asterisk for Aragorn's being a member of the Fellowship a bit irrelevant? I'm gonna delete it, someone can revert it if I'm wrong. --Quidon88 01:30, 5 January 2007 (EST)
- I also find it unneccessary. I'll go ahead and remove it (as I have several other minor edits I would like to perform on the page). --Narfil Palùrfalas 07:35, 5 January 2007 (EST)
Where the death date comes from?[edit source]
As far as I know, Galadriel is immortal. So where can you conclude her date of death? 188.8.131.52 23:02, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
- The infobox says "Passed into the West" and the article states "aged approx. 8,370 years when she took the Straight Road to Valinor". There is no statement of death. --fleela 23:12, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
- But the infobox says that :"Date of death" and "Age at death", those look like she died already, if my eyes don't betray me.
- The infobox is a standard template used in many articles, hence the descriptive parenthetical phrase. --fleela 23:58, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
- I think we should clear out the information from infobox since it can mislead the readers about her "death". Also, there's an asynchronism here when the lead section state she's aged approx. 8,370 years when she took the Straight Road to Valinor while the infobox says "approximately 7114 years". To have it out, I favor the information of 7114 rather than the number 8370 (in wikipedia version they calculate that "500 (FA) + 3400 (SA) + 3300 (TA) = apx. 7000". Merge the infomation in infobox to lead section is my solution. 184.108.40.206 00:09, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
- Right now Galadriel is using a Royalty infobox, but I think we should change it to be an Elf-specific infobox. As most Elves passed on to the Undying lands and did not die, we can use that in place of death. I'll double check the dates and fix the article, thanks for your input. --Hyarion 00:30, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
- Galadriel should be using the Noldor infobox, which I'll put up after a rewrite (or someone can change it before the rewrite). Most of the Noldor Tolkien writes about did die at one point or another (almost the entire House of Finwë, for instance); I'd say about 9/10. For Elves I suppose we could put Died/Passed West, but it's rather more annoying to have to explain on every article which they did (whereas here the few that survived to pass west are explained as such). On the other hand, since the elves that died in Middle-earth were usually reborn in Aman, we could probably think up a variation on "departed mortal lands", etc. Personally, I'm contented with the way it is. --Narfil Palùrfalas 06:17, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
- I believe I put down the age. That was based on the dates calculated for the ages plus a hundred or so years to make her old enough for what she did during the Exile of the Noldor. I'm not sure why I added "14". Also, I was thinking, for the Elves passing west is very much like death (only they don't. . . die. They skip the step of being disembodied and going through Mandos). With proper word choice we might be able to work out something. --Narfil Palùrfalas 06:21, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
- The Elrond article has an age for when he sailed to the West, while Galadriel (who left with the same ship) has not. Using the information in Elrond's article, in Fingolfin's article, and Years of the Trees, I calulate her age at that point in time as being 8374 years old (which others above already have calculated).
- Think her age at the departure should be mentioned as it shows how old and ancient (and noble) she really is (also, why not give her the same honour as Elrond?). 220.127.116.11 05:27, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Going East[edit source]
The article fails in elaborating all the differences in the story of Galadriel. When did she leave Aman, how did she leave, where did she meet Celeborn? Also it completely lacks information about Galadriel and Celeborn passing east into Eriador before the end of the FA. --Thalion 14:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Different versions[edit source]
Isn't the section about the different versions of the legends a bit confusing? It seems to mix several sources into one. As far as I know, there are more or less three different versions. The one of "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" found in UT, in which they were the kings of Eregion instead of Celebrimbor, with Amroth as their son. A later one, that comes right after this one in UT, and that clearly rejects their parentage with Amroth, and says nothing about them ruling Eregion (roughly speaking, the "canon" version that appears in the main section of the article and is coherent with all the published works). And the last one, that makes Celeborn a Telerin Elf (thus contradicting LotR and The Road Goes Ever On), in which Galadriel sails from Aman separately but nothing is told about what happened to her in Middle Earth thereafter. Shouldn't these be given as separate, contradictory versions, instead of as a single, amalgamated one? —Unsigned comment by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs).
Portrayals of Galadriel in adaptions[edit source]
The passage where it talks about Galadriel in the Two Towers in Peter's film trilogy I think makes a mistake. It says Galadriel sending elven soldiers to Helm's Deep is practically unthinkable, but in the film, Haldir clearly states that he "brings word from Elrond of Rivendell". So that would imply that Elrond sent them, and not Galadriel. —Unsigned comment by Zaccarius (talk • contribs).
- I certainly agree that there are way too many value judgements in this section which breaks neutrality. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 21:27, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Suggestions for improvement[edit source]
It is my understanding that this website (as is general among Tolkienists), holds the policy that any work published by Tolkien during his lifetime is the true canon, while in the case of unpublished works, what came later is more correct than what came earlier (except if it contradicts the canon). However, I’ve noticed that this article doesn’t seem to follow that policy at some places. I would like to edit it, but first I wanted to consult it here, to see if the changes are agreed upon.
As for this line: “During the troubles that followed, it is unclear if she took any part in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë.”
In a late essay published in Unfinished Tales, is said that Galadriel revolted along with the other Noldor, but “Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back.” Since I’m not aware that this is contradicted by any other work published or later than this one, I think it’s safe to say that she fought against the Kinslayers.
“Given the choice whether to stay in Middle-earth or not, Galadriel and Celeborn surprisingly decided to remain. Galadriel was still very proud, even arrogant, and refused to accept the pardon of the Valar and therefore exiled herself in Middle-earth.”
A passage in The Road Goes Ever On says: “After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so.” This is the only canon explanation of why Galadriel remained in Middle-earth, so it should replace the current line in the main article.
“Eventually Galadriel and Celeborn made contact with the Nandor of Amdír, who dwelt in a forest realm called Lórinand across the Misty Mountains.” A note in Unfinished Tales says that the concept that Lórinand was the original name was abandoned. The original name would be Lindórinand. Only after Galadriel became ruler of the forest and brought the mallorns, was the name changed to Lórinand, and later, Lorien.
“It was during their days of power and glory in Lothlórien (either before or after the deaths of Amdír and Amroth) that Galadriel bore her first and only child: a daughter exceedingly fair named Celebrían.” In “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn” (Unfinished Tales) it’s said that right after Sauron’s defeat in Eregion, a Council was held in Rivendel in which Elrond fell in love with Celebrian. This happened clearly before Amdír and Amroth died. It wouldn’t be either during Galadriel’s days of power and glory in Lothlórien. That came much later.
Apart from this, I’d like to rearrange the section in “Other versions of the legendarium” to separate the different contradictory versions. Right now, they’re all mixed as if it was a single one. --22.214.171.124 11:43, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
- I support all of this. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:45, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
- Same here. Amaranth 14:17, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Propose the removal of the 'Sources' tag[edit source]
This tag has been in place since at least 2010 (if not earlier), at that time the page had zero references but it now has twenty two, so I would suggest that this is sufficient for the removal of the 'Sources' tag but I did not want to do so myself. --JR Snow 16:44, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- I think the template can be remove because there are many references (save for the dates maybe). However, there is a lack of pagination for the references from TLOTR and UT (the manual says there is not need to include pagination for UT, but I disagree). I don't have the required TLOTR edition, but I want to improve the references from UT (the section of OVOTL needs a lot of rework) and I'll remove the template then. --LorenzoCB 17:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, I removed the template because I don't know when I'll be able to revise it. Inline citations, pagination and OVOTL should be improved: this is an important article! --LorenzoCB 16:24, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Possibly Information To Look Over?[edit source]
I found a posting on a website by someone who quoted a lot of information on Galadriel critiquing this article. I have not looked at the second half of it, but I do think it should be looked at, and some of it incorporated into the article. Such as Galadriel being born in Eldamar since it is never said exactly which city in Eldamar she was born in. Edited: I just forgot to put the link to the information: https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/galadriel-article-tolkiengateway-is-not-trustworthy.30127/
-- Dour1234, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
- The same post was already done in the wiki's forum some months ago: Forums:Galadriel page needs fixing. I find it quite hypocritical that the user made such a LONG study criticizing the wiki instead of actually improving the article. I finally got my 50th anniversay edition of TLOTR, so I'll get into this article anytime soon and I'll make use of the criticisms there, although I'm considering making the article from zero. --LorenzoCB 12:25, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Well, I finished rewriting the "History" section. I'd wish I had finished the OVOTL already, but I'm considering making a shorter explanation, which means more work. Please, somebody revise the grammar of what I added! Any suggestions or corrections?--LorenzoCB (talk) 09:43, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Btw, notice that the notes I included are deliberately vague. I intend to include links to the sections that will explain the contraditions in more detail. So please, keep them as they are. But everyone is now free to improve the article as they think it's better. I'm sure I missed a lot of details. --LorenzoCB (talk) 16:30, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Galadriel's Departure From Beleriand & "Of Amroth and Nimrodel"[edit source]
This article claims that Galadriel and Celeborn left Beleriand before the Fall of Nargothrond. I'm not sure if this is actually Tolkien's intent. According to Christopher Tolkien, the line Galadriel states can simply be explained because "In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf" (see Unfinished Tales page 228). I would note in Tolkien's own published writings, within his lifetime, he directly implies Galadriel remained in Beleriand until after the War of Wrath in this line: "After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin witt her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion." (The Road Goes Ever On p. 60)
Christopher Tolkien reflects this in this line:
It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath (it is said in one place that Celeborn ‘escaped the sack of Doriath’), and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril – but this is nowhere stated. Celeborn is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings as dwelling for a time in Lindon south of the Lune; but early in the Second Age they passed over the Mountains into Eriador. (UT 233)
Also, are we implementing corrections to "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" from later works or not? This wiki seems to consider "Of Amroth and Nimrodel" canon, and it was written later than "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn". At any rate, this article does not say Amroth was Galadriel's son. However, according to the later version, Galadriel did not depart to Lórien so early but rather, at the Sack of Eregion, apparently went to Lindon with Celebrían while Celeborn helped Noldorin exiles to Lórien (see UT 243-244). So, what are everyone's thoughts? SingingOrc (talk) 05:20, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hi. I kept the idea of G&C leaving Beleriand before the Fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin because that's what she states to the Fellowship in TLOTR. No matter what we have, another reader will come complaining we are ommiting something. That's why I chose to simply assemble the most known info in the most coherent way possible and explain everything in the Unsolved contradictions section. I'd have answered you by simply pointing to Note 11 in the article, but Christopher's explanation of G&C's presence in the ruin of Doriath is something I had overlooked. It will be great to include it. About your points on Celeborn, I wanted to include that info in the mentioned section, but never got the chance to finish it completely. --LorenzoCB (talk) 12:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- I think I see what you mean. I missed that section. Still, this article says, "Hence in the chapter "The Mirror of Galadriel" she said Celeborn dwelt in the West before the Dawn, and that she crossed the mountains from Beleriand (apparently alone)." Galadriel does not say "from Beleriand", but simply "I passed over the mountains". Personally, in light of Christopher Tolkien's words, I am almost inclined to think she is talking about a different mountain range, one she crossed when coming to Doriath. That said, when Tolkien first wrote it, he meant the Misty Mountains, so I don't know how seriously we can take this. Further, I think there is something to be said of the ambiguous wording. And generally, this wiki seems to go by Christopher Tolkien's methods and Christopher Tolkien disagrees. Also, things such as "The Road Goes Ever On" were also published in Tolkien's lifetime but were less vague.
- My points were more about "Of Amroth and Nimrodel" just because I'm not sure how consistent the page's standard is about the sources we're using, and I'm almost inclined to think that if Amroth is not the son of Galadriel, we should at least try to edit this just to make it consistent with "Of Amroth and Nimrodel entirely. SingingOrc (talk) 14:31, 9 July 2023 (UTC)