From Tolkien Gateway
Latest comment: 24 April 2016 by Edrastel in topic Usage of Speculative Map as Header Image

I've deleted the reference to the Mediterranean, as 'mediterraneus' in Latin doesn't mean 'Middle-earth', but "midland, inland, remote from the sea". So, Mare Mediterraneum means 'inland sea'.

- Earendilyon

Major Overhaul[edit source]

I've deleted much infor from the article, which shouldn't have been in it in the first place. Perhaps some of it could be put in seperate articles, if those aren't written yet. --Earendilyon 02:48, 6 March 2006 (EST)

One thing I'm still debating in instances such as this is creating 'sub articles', such as Middle-earth/History or creating a page like Middle-earth History. But I do think separation into more detailed articles is a must. --Hyarion 10:44, 6 March 2006 (EST)

Two Maps[edit source]

Hyarion, as it necessary for this article to have two (virtually identical) maps? I'm asking you, 'cause you placed the second one last night. --Earendilyon 01:59, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

Virtually identical to the untrained eye! I suppose we could look for some different maps, I was just on my uploading spree and that happened to be one of the images so I threw it in there. I know Tolkien Enterprises has a thing for maps but I wonder if John Howe's violates whatever they dislike about them... --Hyarion 10:36, 2 May 2006 (EDT)
Actually, it’s not Tolkien Enterprises (now Middle-earth Enterprises) that keeps pursuing maps, but the Estate. — Mithrennaith 00:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Region or Realm?[edit source]

I think we hardly can call Middle-earth a Realm. Realm means Kingdom, and M-e never had a King, as far as I can tell. Peoples in it did, and certain parts of it did, but not the whole. So, why change the Category:Regions to Category:Realms? --Earendilyon 16:55, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

If you check the information correctly you will notice i have written [[Category:Realm|*]]. The * donates that is is not a region or realm but is heavily associated with them. Jasca Ducato 16:58, 4 September 2006 (EDT)
Well, I didn't know that was the meaning of the asterisk. But it isn't seen on the page anyway, only in the source code, so I still think it's incorrect, or (at best) giving an incorrect impression. --Earendilyon 17:06, 4 September 2006 (EDT)
  • It is not incorrect. I know how to use wiki codes! 17:10, 4 September 2006 (EDT)
In my opinion, the suggestion it gives the reader is incorrect: it suggests that Middle-earth is some kind of Realm, whereas it isn't. The reader doesn't see the asterisk, so doesn't know Middle-earth "is heavily associated with" Realms. --Earendilyon 17:20, 4 September 2006 (EDT)
Well your name doesn't "suggest" alot. I would have to follow the link to find out more, wouldn't I? Clicking on the link and reading would provide adequate explanation. Jasca Ducato 17:22, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

A realm, is as Earendilyon said a kingdom not a region as it should be classified as. Dwarf Lord

  • Look Gondor is a Realm; Itilien is a Region. iddle-earth has been placed in the Realm category because it is effectievly one large realm. it has been left with a <niwiki>*</nowiki> which donates a uniqueness in the article. Jasca Ducato 05:04, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

Whatever, dude. Do as you wish. Dwarf Lord

a map!![edit source]

I have saved this old timeline-map from Wikipedia, which is however removed. [1] Perhaps we could include it here? It's too good to be left obsolete. Sage 08:07, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

I remember this map.. good one. As for inclusion, that depends. Why was it removed from Wikipedia? If it violated any copyright, we can't use it here. -- Ederchil 08:32, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
What this article needs is an image link to many maps of Middle Earth. Did Tolkien ever make a full map of the continent?--Galdor of the Havens 00:44, 6 December 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Tolkien made a sketch of all Arda, the basis of which was used to make this image]. The large continent with the label HITHER LANDS is Middle-earth. Sage 09:37, 6 December 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Rewrite[edit source]

After discussing such thing in Talk:Esgaroth, I think it's time to decide the future of this ultra-essential article which has been in limbo for quite some time. I am afraid the article's topic is so obvious that it passes unnoticed.

So, somebody please tell what's wrong with the article and what would make it better. Sage 18:13, 26 January 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not sure why the current content needs to be rewritten (Ederchil added the template in 2009) but it definitely needs more sources: they're fairly sparse in the "Geography" and "History" sections. Remembering that this is probably one of our most important articles (with 140,000 hits it has about the same number of views as Frodo Baggins; it ranks above Samwise Gamgee, The Lord of the Rings and the One Ring) I think it is painfully short and needs massive expansion; Wikipedia's article is brilliant by comparison. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:35, 26 August 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Usage of Speculative Map as Header Image[edit source]

For some time now, a colorized version of Karen Wynn Fonstad's curvature-distorted map of the northern lands of Middle-earth has been used as the header image for Middle-earth's article. While I greatly respect the effort she put into her Atlas of Middle-earth, it seems unfitting to use a fan-made speculative map as a header image for the article.

For one thing, I doubt the curvature of the earth would affect Middle-earth's shape as greatly as she suggests. Even before the publication of later books for The History of Middle-earth, Middle-earth's size was known to be much smaller than the current header image would suggest. The northernmost points wouldn't even reach the northernmost latitude of the Scandinavian Peninsula, and Umbar is of a similar latitude as Cyprus and the coasts of Tunisia and Algeria. The image used as the header would suggest that Middle-earth's northern regions would reach into the Arctic zones, which is simply impossible given the scales provided by Tolkien himself in his maps as well as his statement that Hobbiton is at the latitude of Oxford.

There's also the matter of Fonstad's unfortunate outdatedness of the overall shape of Arda. While it was right of her to base her Atlas on the Ambarkanta maps, which she replicated to an outstanding degree on a detailed scale, later publications have drastically changed what we know of Middle-earth's structure, such as the existence of Mordor and the Sea of Rhun in the First Age as well as the closeness of the Orocarni Mountains to the Westlands. Nowadays, while her maps are a fitting reference in most cases, the overall shape of Middle-earth in the header image currently used is still speculative.

I believe it would be best to give Middle-earth's article a header image relying solely on Tolkien's own provided maps, particularly "The West of Middle-earth at the End of the Third Age" provided by The Lord of the Rings and Unfinished Tales, or perhaps the "General Map of Middle-earth" that includes Umbar and parts of the Cape of Forochel. This particular map comes from Tolkien's own hand as well as his son's, leaves nothing to speculation or outdatedness, and can be safely stated to be an accurate and entirely non-speculative map of Middle-earth.

I understand that John Howe's recreation of this map is already present on the article, but I feel that a work of the Tolkiens' own creation should take the header, and if such becomes the case then Howe's recreation would be removed for the sake of avoiding redundancy. --Edrastel 02:00, 21 April 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If we replace thr image I don't think we can use one of Tolkien's as they don't show the entire continent. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 20:07, 22 April 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's true, but is it required that all of the continent be shown? The Lord of the Rings Wikia and the Encyclopedia of Arda have settled for recreations of Tolkien's own map designs for the Westlands of Middle-earth. I don't see why Tolkien Gateway shouldn't follow the same principle. --Edrastel 16:38, 24 April 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]