From Tolkien Gateway
Latest comment: 25 April by Oberiko in topic Other names from earlier legendarium

Daniel Govar

can we add the daniel govar picture of him please? Unsigned comment by (talk • contribs).

Good idea. I've added Govar's illustration as well as a few others. Thanks for the input. --Hyarion 22:42, 8 September 2006 (EDT)
no, hyarion i meant moving the daniel govar image to images of morgoth category.Unsigned comment by (talk • contribs).
Hm, then I guess I'm still confused, which image are you referring to? The image of Morgoth/Melkor by Govar currently in the article was uploaded after you posted that so you must have been referring to another image. I suppose we should merge Category:Images of Melkor and Category:Images of Morgoth, I'll do that now. Thanks again for your input. --Hyarion 12:19, 10 September 2006 (EDT)

timo vihola picture

can someone add the timo vihola picture of him to the images of melkor category? Unsigned comment by (talk • contribs).

Great suggestion, the image has been added. I have also moved all the Images of Melkor to Images of Morgoth --Hyarion 14:49, 11 November 2006 (EST)

elfenomeno images

can we add the elfenomeno images of him to the pictures of morgoth section?

Thanks for your suggestion. Can you specify exactly which images you would like to see uploaded? If you like it might be easier to login and use the "Upload" link on the left so you could upload any images yourself. Thanks again for your input. --Hyarion 02:00, 16 December 2006 (EST)

mikel janin image

can we add the mikel janin image of him to the images of morgoth section?

Morgoth's lust??

This is just a minor detail, but it struck me as pretty strange (and somewhat out of context) while reading this article. It says that Morgoth "lusted after Lúthien". Now, the Silmarillion simply says that he "conceived in his mind an evil lust" ("lust" doesn't have the modern sexual meaning in Tolkien's writings, it simply means a wish, ambition or desire). Compare the passage in the Book of Lost Tales: "his dark mind pondered some evil", and in the Quenta (The Shaping of Middle Earth): "he plotted foul evil within his heart". In my opinion, the sentence of the article is making too many assumptions here.Unsigned comment by (talk • contribs).

Good point. Feel free to change to a better wording. Thanks! --Morgan 19:02, 4 March 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Recent Activity

It seems like this article has seen a great deal of increased activity lately. Much of it has either been irrelevant to Morgoth, misinformation, poorly written, and/or plainly false. I know everyone does what they can patrolling recent changes, but if some extra attention could be devoted to keeping an eye on this article for a bit, I'd appreciate it. I think it goes without saying this article is centric enough to the mythos that it should be of the upmost quality. Thanks. -Smog 06:24, 25 September 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think you've volunteered for that role! --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am already doing what I can (this is one of the pages on my watch list.), but I cannot always catch everything. Due to the high number of repeated incorrect edits, I often cannot simply revert the changes. I was asking for others to possibly help me keep an eye on it for awhile if they had time. I would never request assistance with something I wasn't already doing myself. -Smog 02:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Minions and allies

I'm kind of unsure about this section because it has many characters that appear only in earlier writings e.g. Lungorthin etc. and are not mentioned again, mixed in with other characters that also appeared earlier but remained in later iterations e.g. Glaurung etc.. Tevildo is the early conception of what would become the character Sauron but Sauron is also in the list so is it implying these two are wholly different characters? I think it would be just confusing for someone who has only read The Silmarillion and wondering where all these characters are in his/her book. Additionally older concepts should really be in its own section (ovotl) which the article lacks. Therefore I'm wondering if there should be some criteria for what to include in something like this. Gaetano 15:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As far as I recall, the 2017 Beren and Luthien, edited by Christopher Tolkien (R.I.P.), established Tevildo as a character different than that of Sauron (Tevildo was the precursor of Thu/Tuvon, who evolved into Sauron) They also have their own separate articles here. If you think it's not good to mix characters from the early layouts of the Silmarillion with those of the finished book, perhaps we can make some sort of criteria to include only those from the final versions. --LordoftheEarth 15:09, 8 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I put a separation in the list that should help. Gaetano 15:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Infobox image tampering

Can we please come to a consensus on the infobox image - seeing that, recently, some users seem to just change it according to their own aesthetic sensibilities without any discussion? (This also applies to other articles, especially the one about Sauron). --

Although I agree with your point, in 15 years of editing I've never heard an anonymous user raise this complaint before. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 20:41, 12 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I really don't see the point of making an account, since I only frequent this site occasionally (my last bout of edits being about a month ago, adding some info from The History of The Hobbit - specifically about Dori, Nori, and Ori, and the nature of their kinship). --
Agreed, it should be reverted back to the image as it was on [February 2020]. Gaetano 09:14, 13 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I hesitate to simply remove a contribution someone else thought was helpful, but I don't really think Genealogy makes sense as a section for any of the Ainur. In this case Melkor is listed as brother to Manwë, but of course there are other male Valar. Manwë is shown as husband to Varda, but of course all three were creations of Eru, who is not shown. If he was, it would imply that the coupling was incestuous, which of course is a concept that simply doesn't apply to the Valar - in fact, no genealogy concept really applies, as they have no descendants either. The statements already present that he is one of the Ainur, created like the others from the thought of Eru, is enough. -jerodast 16:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I disagree - the fact that all of the Ainur were created by Iluvatar, does not mean that any sort of kinship (in the mind of Eru) or matrimony between some of them, are on the same kind of level or have the same meaning as kinship or marriage in the Incarnates (Elves, Men, Dwarves, etc.).
And in light of that, just because the relationships between Valar or Maiar are different than those of ours, does not mean that they shouldn't be represented in the genealogy section - and if you wish to argue that the concept of genealogy does not really apply properly to the Ainur, then I'd like to know in what way would you want to represent these relationships, and under what heading? IvarTheBoneless 18:11, 18 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The Valaquenta describes some Valar as siblings: Manwe and Melkor, Yavanna and Vána, Orome and Nessa, the Fëanturi. The fact they are the offspring of Ilúvatar's thought and not directly the Children of Ilúvatar, already points to an abstract but real genealogy that has no genetic implications. --LorenzoCB 19:13, 18 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Morgoth in The Book of Lost Tales

Indeed, everything is canon... in its own context. In Tolkien Gateway we do not mix different phases of the legendarium, and The Book of Lost Tales has its own consistency and characteristics, which are incompatible with the following developments done by Tolkien in his stories. The names ("Melko" instead of "Melkor") are just one example. To the anonymous editor: you should be able to notice the wiki's policy in the Dagor Dagorath article very clearly. About if we ommit the prophecy as Christopher Tolkien did, I think it is very important to mention it at least as "according to a prophecy", without detailing if it's gonna happen actually, and leave the readers to decide if it is ""canon"" or not once they read the other article. --LorenzoCB (talk) 08:10, 4 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Other names from earlier legendarium

Adding other names from earlier legendarium here since I'm not sure where to put it just yet.

  • Qenya
    • Melko
    • Yeloimu: cognate of Geluim[1]
  • Gnomish
    • Belcha: Lord of utter heat and cold, of violence and evil. Variations include Belca. Gnomish cognate of Melko.[1]
    • Flanthog: "Scornful"[1]
    • Geluim: "Ice". His name when exercising his opposite functions of extreme cold. Variations include Gilim.[1]
    • Uduvrin: "Hell-lord"[1]
    • Angainos: "Iron-god"[1]
    • Utumnar[1]
    • Angien[1]
    • Yelur[1]

Oberiko (talk) 12:13, 25 April 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  1. 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 1.8 J.R.R. Tolkien, "I-Lam na-Ngoldathon: The Grammar and Lexicon of the Gnomish Tongue", in Parma Eldalamberon XI (edited by Christopher Gilson, Arden R. Smith, and Patrick H. Wynne)