About Mim
I'm not sure that the information from NoME about Mim trying to kill Finrod should be included in the main section of the article: my reason being that Nargothrond wasn't completed until about the year FA 102, while Mim died in the year FA 502, meaning that Mim would be at least 400 years old at the time of his death, older than any other dwarf (except Durin the Deathless).
Given the (seeming) discrepancies in the chronology, I think this information should be included in the OVOTL. IvarTheBoneless 12:24, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'm trying to apply the info from TNOME carefully, to avoid contradictions, but I see no problem with this case. The lifespan of the Dwarves was diminished with the ages, so I see no problem with a Dwarf living 400+ years in the First Age (and there can always be exceptions), and we must consider that Mîm is depicted as being quite old. Also, the text of the Founding of Nargothrond is from 1969, so at this point Tolkien was well awared of the dates and would have not made a chronological mistake. I'm planning to add this new info in the article of Mîm too, unless somebody proofs me wrong, of course. --LorenzoCB 12:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Can you point me to the text that says that the dwarven lifespan diminished with the ages? Also, are we sure that the timeline Tolkien had in mind in 1969 is the same as that of the Grey Annals?
- Also also - while not really on the topic - what about Ingwe and his family as described in the NoME: if I remember correctly the final generational scheme had Ingwe as the 25th (or 24th?) generation descendant of Imin, yet in the articles about Ingwe, he is described as being the 6th generation descendant...but I think I should move this discussion elsewhere. IvarTheBoneless 13:38, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, I can't say now what's the page number, but in The Peoples of Middle-earth, in the "The Making of Appendix A: (iv) Durin's Folk" it is said: Dwarves of different 'breeds' vary in their longevity. Durin's race were originally long-lived (especially those named Durin), but like most other peoples they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed (up to 300). A Dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a Man of 100. No doubt a Dwarf in the First Age could live 400+. About the timeline, what timeline could be other than the Grey Annals? We have The Tale of Years (The War of the Jewels), but it only has different dates in the last years of the First Age.
- About Ingwë, we have a problem indeed beyond the ancestry, as I said in Talk:Ingwë. It is kinda unfortunate you applied the genealogy tree in several articles, but I guess you didn't see my concern. My bad adding the new info without having TNOME properly digested. But in the case of Mîm I don't see any problem. --LorenzoCB 15:20, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Mim vs. Blue Mountain Dwarves
I don't know if I agree with this statement:
He was at first aided by the Petty Dwarves that still lingered there, who were greatly compensated, but their chieftain Mîm tried to murder him during his sleep and they were expelled. Thus Finrod was later aided by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, who also made for him the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, and gave him his famous epithet, Felagund, Hewer of Caves.
I read it more as in some versions he's assisted by Mim, and others by the Blue Mountain Dwarves; do we have anything to state that the Blue Mountain Dwarves continued Mim's work? Oberiko (talk) 19:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Dwarves at founding
We have three primary sources to draw on for the Dwarves at founding, I've bolded points of emphasis:
The name Felagund was of Dwarvish origin. Finrod had help of Dwarves in extending the underground fortress of Nargothrond. It is supposed originally to have been a hall of the Petty-dwarves (Nibinnogs), but the Great Dwarves despised these, and had no compunction in ousting them – hence Mîm’s special hatred for the Elves – especially for great reward. Finrod had brought more treasure out of Tuna than any of the other princes.
He therefore made great journeys, exploring the lands, especially in southern and western Beleriand. It is told that when he came upon the Narog rushing down its steep course under the hills’ shadow, he resolved to make there a secret fortress and store-houses against evil days, if he could; but the river could not be crossed at that place, and in the far banks he saw the opening of many caves. The tale of his dealings with the Petty Dwarves who still lingered there, remnant of a once more numerous folk, is told elsewhere. But during the years of peace that still remained Finrod carried out his design, and established the great mansions that were later called Nargothrond (< Narog + ost-rond), the cavernous halls beside the Narog. In this labour he had at first help from the Petty Dwarves and their feigned friendship; for which he rewarded them generously until Mîm their chieftain made an attempt to murder him in his sleep and was driven out into the wild.
Mîm gets a certain curious liking for Túrin, increased when he learns that Túrin has had trouble with Elves, whom he detests. He says Elves have caused the end of his race, and taken all their mansions, especially Nargothrond (Nulukhizidûn).
From this Christopher devised the following:
Thus Finrod came to the Caverns of Narog, and began to establish there deep halls and armouries after the fashion of the mansions of Menegroth; and that stronghold was called Nargothrond. In that labour Finrod was aided by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains; and they were rewarded well, for Finrod had brought more treasures out of Tirion than any other of the princes of the Noldor.
I don't think they need-be contradictory and will take a crack at putting them cohesively. Oberiko (talk) 18:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)