Talk:Wizards

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I think this article needs some extra editing: the different parts look like loose sand to me: too little coherence. --Earendilyon 15:48, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

Hm, well it definitely needs to be broken into sections, doesn't look very appealing all in one block of text. I'll add it to my list. Maybe we need a "List of categories currently working on" or something. Little bits of editing here and there is nice, but like the Chamber of Mazarbul we can write some great articles if we can focus on certain ones at a time. --Hyarion 16:00, 5 April 2006 (EDT)
It could probably use a reference to the bit mentioned in Unfinished Tales, that the Order of Wizards included more than the Five, but the five were the ones that were sent to the north.66.8.254.133 16:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Human feelings[edit]

This article has a reasoning of the "human feelings" (which I changed to "mannish feelings", for the moment being) of the Wizards. However, I find the argument a bit strange: could these feelings be attributed to only humans/Men? Isn't "greed", for example, a typical Dwarven trait? --Morgan 23:38, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Redirect to Heren Istarion[edit]

I don't think that the main page for content about the Five Wizards should live under the article name "Heren Istarion." I think that name is excessively obscure, and it better serves the encyclopedic purpose of the wiki to use the common name as the page name. Does anyone else feel that the redirection of this page to that one should be reversed? --Mord 07:04, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree that those changes should be reversed. It has been a policy to use the most common name. In addition the user Dour1234 did not use the move function so the history of the changes and the talk page are still on the old page. The user should be warned and closely monitored. --Akhorahil 07:54, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
I agree.--Shivam 08:07, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
I think that the wizards page should be moved to Heren Istarion because the wizards are an order, not standard fantasy wizards. Also, while the Heren Istarion is the proper name for them. I do think that the page should be at least moved to an “Order of Wizards” page as that is the translation of Heren Istarion and the common name wizards is still used. Also, I apologize for my edit before. I am new to editing on Tolkien Gateway and in the future, I will not make these mistakes again. Dour1234, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
The wiki's policy uses the most commonly known term for the article's title (that's why Aragorn is not Aragorn II), not the most "technically correct" or else; see TG:NAMING. I blocked you for mere preventive reasons, feel free to edit, but be aware of the Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style. I'll try to merge these articles properly in the near future. --LorenzoCB 23:28, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
If you forgive my bluntness for a moment, but what is the difference between “Wizards” and “Order of Wizards?” How would Order of Wizards be misidentified as meaning something other than the five wizards when the only wizards in middle earth that are actually in fact called wizards are the Order of Wizards. Also, why would Aragorn ll be more confusing than plain Aragorn. The reason I like accuracy over commonality is because I feel that it should be a wiki’s responsibility to make people aware of the correct terminology. Obviously I will not disregard this in the future (unless the policy changes, of which I hope it does). Dour1234, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
It's not about difference between these words its just that we should not complicate simple things. Word "Wizards" is self-explanatory. For instance many new readers wouldn't know what Heren Istarion is (infact I myself didn't know what it meant a year ago). And also not all know Aragorn as Aragorn II (because many new readers come after watching LOTR film series and in these films Aragorn is not called Aragorn II for not even once. And our responsibility is to encourage readers to take more and more interest in Legendarium which can be done by using simple but accurate terminology.--Shivam 06:10, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Ok, I see your point about Heren Istarion, but what about making the page “Order of Wizards?” What is the difference between “Wizards” and “Order of Wizards?” How would Order of Wizards be misidentified as meaning something other than the five wizards when the only wizards in middle earth that are actually in fact called wizards are the Order of Wizards. Dour1234, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
I moved the information from the Heren Istarion page to various places on this page. Dour1234, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Ok, the article is still quite a mess. I still have in mind of revising this, do not worry, I'll merge this eventually. --LorenzoCB 08:58, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I believe that the Heren Istarion page can be deleted now since all the information from that page is now on this page, making that page a duplicate of this page. The only thing that needs to happen is that this page needs to be revised. Can you tell me what needs to be done on this page? Dour1234, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
We said not "Order of Wizards". Follow the Manual of Style. --LorenzoCB 20:44, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
I was under the impression that it was “Heren Istarion” we did not agree on. I still think that “Order of Wizards” should be the name of the page as there are no wizards other than the five in the order. Having the page named simply “Wizards” gives off the initial impression that there are more than five Wizards. Also, wizard was just the term for members of the group while Order of Wizards was the term for the group as a whole. Also, the term Wizards seems out of place on the organisations category page as it is the only term on it that is not the actual name of the organisation. Dour1234, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Did you read Tolkien Gateway's naming policy and did you perform an analyisis of works that were written by J.R.R. before you wrote your comment? On which statements in the policy and on which use in what works is your statement that the name of the page should be "Order of Wizards" based? I strongly encourage you to perform such research before you edit or before you propose names. --Akhorahil 15:06, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
The term Heren Istarion is used in unfinished tales, and that translates to Order of Wizards. However, if you want evidence in LOTR, the wizards are consistently referred to as an order and not individual magic practitioners. Even in the films, it is this way. Also, I do not see how Order of Wizards would violate the naming policy. It is just as recognizable as the term wizards to both readers of the books and watchers of the films. As for conciseness, while the term Wizards is shorter, Order of Wizards does not look as out of place in the organisations category page as the term Wizards does. Though, I guess the page could be renamed to simply the term Order, but then it would lose its recognizability. Dour1234, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
I am starting to lose my patience. Neither the term "Order of Wizards" nor the term "Heren Istarion" are used in The Lord of the Rings or in The Silmarillion. Most users have probably only read The Lord of the Rings if they have read a book that was written by J.R.R. Tolkien at all. The term "Order of Wizards" and the term "Heren Istarion" are only used once in the chapter "The Istari" in the book "Unfinished Tales of Númenór and Middle-earth, they are neither used in The Lord of the Rings nor in The Silmarillion. The term "Wizards" or "wizards" is used very frequently in The Lord of the Rings and Unfinished Tales of Númenór and Middle-earth. The term Istari or Wizards is used once in The Silmarillion. It is irrelevant if the wizards are an order. The relevant criterion is what name users of Tolkien Gateway who are searching for information about the wizards are most likely to enter in the Search field on Tolkien Gateway or in the search field on google or on another search engine. As a consequence the name of the page should be Wizards and the information on that page already contains information on the order. --Akhorahil 15:50, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
The current name is fine. Dour1234, the wiki's policy is not gonna change so easily. Please, stop discussing this matter in different talkpages, it is pretty boring and there are more necessary things to do in the wiki. --LorenzoCB 16:08, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
I will drop the matter of changing the name. Though I have just one last question. Can the “Order of Wizards redirect page that leads to this page be on the organisations category page at least since it is the name of the organisation? It could still lead to this page. This is my last contribution to this specific conversation. Can I? Dour1234, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
No, that category is already applied to "Wizards". It would be redundant. --LorenzoCB 16:00, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
What about if it is applied to Order of Wizards instead of Wizards since it is the name of the organization and redirects to Wizards? I do not think the organization category should be applied to Wizards as Wizards are simply the term for the members. Dour1234, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Rewrite of the Wizards page[edit]

I intend to do a complete restructuring of the Wizards page. In a first step, I intend to review the content and compare it against the known sources to verify if the content is supported by the sources and to add references to the sources. In a second step, I intend to remove all references in the text itself to J.R.R. Tolkien so that the test is written in-universe, because the works written by J.R.R. Tolkien are already disclosed in the references. In a third step, I intend to create an Other versions of the legendarium section and to decide what content should be moved from the text into this section and to add out-of-universe information from what earlier works or versions this information is from. For the moment I intend to leave information from The Lord of the Rings and from The Hobbit in the main section and to add unfinished works (UT The Istari, POME Last Writings Wizards, NOME Note on the delay of Gil-galad) written by J.R.R. Tolkien to it and omit only information that conflicts with words that were published by him during his lifetime or that conflicts with Of the Rings of Power and the Third age that seems rather finished and that was mentioned by J.R.R. Tolkien in one of his letters and that was published by his son Christopher Tolkien in The Silmarillion. If there were several unfinished versions or if there is a conflict between different unfinished works, I intend to include information from the last works or versions in the main section and to move information from earlier versions that differse from those later works or versions to the Other versions of the legendarium section. That way it becomes clear from the references and from the Other versions of the legendarium section what "pseudo-canon" is included in the main section of the article. --Akhorahil (talk) 11:14, 13 October 2022 (UTC)