Tolkien Gateway

Template talk:Kingdom

How do you customize the colors for this template? --Narfil Palùrfalas 10:37, 15 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Cleaning up

I'm questioning the inclusion of "religious" - as Tolkien stated there was no worship (nor any temples) in M-e, and religion was not a factor (calling on the Valar was like calling on saints). Also, the "anthem" - there are several songs may be applicable to a country, but nowhere is an explicit anthem stated. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 20:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the idea of religious because I do think that's irrelivant; but I disagree that to call on the Valar is to call on a saint as there is a difference between fact and faith between them (in my opinion). It could be argued that a faith in the Valar (a "religion", if you like) is no different from being a Christian: from my point of view, there is no such thing as God, but devout Christians are certain that their faith is fact. Furthermore, didn't the Númenóreans religiously take part in lavish prayers to Eru, at least in the earlier years?
I, similarly, agree that anthem is superfluous. To be honest, I think the whole template is a bit awkward with some legalistic and constitutionally modern terms in them (such as "judiciary"); as a template it's much more suited to describing a state in 2008 than T.A. 2008. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 23:12, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm very unoriginal when it comes to proposing ideas. Most of them have already been said. Re: the valar/saints, for example, see Letter 153 (sept 1954) (footnote, page 193 in my edition):
"There are thus no temples or 'churches' or fanes in this 'world' among 'good' peoples. They had little or no 'religion' in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a Vala (as Elbereth), as a Catholic might on a Saint, though no doubt knowing in theory as well as hethat the power of the Vala was limited and derivative."
Same letter, in the main text (just prior to the note): Valar were "reverend, therefore, not worshipful". As for Eru (see Letter 156 (4 nov 1954)), there was no "priesthood" after the Kings failed - the King was the Priest. By the time of the War of the Ring, there was no hallowed place (except an unknown one on Mindolluin), and the Númenóreans only performed thanksgiving, no petitionary prayers, and no worship of The One. Elessar reinstated the priesthood, but as the Númenóreans refused to worship any 'creature' (Tolkien's quotation marks), be he good or evil, no churches or temples were made during Númenórean influence.
Can't find anything specific on Elves and Dwarves, but it would appear they did not Worship either. Whether the exclusion of the 'evil' means Sauron made his minions worship Morgoth (or even himself), I don't know. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
If a Catholic calling on a saint is religious, surely an elf calling on Elbereth is the same? Tolkien says there is no "religion (or rather, religious practices)", but he doesn't say that people aren't religious. In my opinion you don't have to do anything to be religious, it's just an inner acceptance of some higher power than yourself. Furthermore, just because there is no formalised and singular religion which worships does not mean the people cannot have faith in the gods (and therefore be "religious"). Also, don't Christians perform thanksgiving to God in the Lord's Prayer?
I think you're missing the point somewhat: whether they are real/false, powerful/feeble, active/inactive isn't the issue. The issue of religion is surely one of "faith", if you believe in something that is enough, regardless of everything else. For example, compare the hobbits' attitude towards God who little cared about him, and likely had little knowledge (with the exception of Frodo, Bilbo and Sam, perhaps) with the attitudes of the Númenóreans who revered him.
In "A Description of the Island of Númenor" we have this: "...Meneltarma, Pillar of the Heavens, sacred to the worship of Eru Ilúvatar.", later calling it the "Holy Mountain". To me, personally, the words "sacred", "worship" and "Holy" all have very religious connotations. In the above-mentioned letter, Tolkien also uses words like "angel", "Authority", "Creator", "sacrifice" and talks about "monotheism" with respect to Eru.
Our article on the Three Prayers (written almost entirely by Tar-Telperien, who is very informed on both religious issues in the legendarium and on Númenórë) takes the view that the ceremonies are religious, and describes a very religious ritual (the silence, the offering of fruit, for example).
Although this is a very interesting debate, I'm not convinced this the place for it! So, I apologise for considerably digressing. So a few statistics for you:
Furthermore, if this is a "kingdom" template, do we really need the "type of government" field?--Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I would certainly agree that I mixed up religious practises with religion itself. The initial "spark" for my rant was Thorin's Halls, because "Belief in Aulë" sounded just too weird for me. If you believe in Aulë, wouldn't you believe in Eru as well (wouldn't even Orcs believe in Eru?). Mentioning it seems irrelevant. Mentioning on Cardolan "Belief in Eru Iluvatar" is similarly irrelevant. It is nowhere directly stated, it's just "Oh, well, they didn't worship Morgoth, so they must believe in Eru". It's useless.
As for the "Kingdom"/"type of government" issue; it appears to be more of a "realm" than a "kingdom" template. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)