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Discussion page of Prince
Latest comment: 28 September 2008 by Aule the Smith in topic Prince tally
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Some time ago (over here) we were discussing this very article. Since the title "prince" is often used in wrong ways, and it is not entirely Gondor-exclusive, shouldn't the scope of this article be broader? (Oh, and Aule, we use cite/cite now) -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 20:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes, I agree this should be much more detailed. But this is a start, and necessary to make sense of the changes I made to the Dol Amroth-related pages. I'll add a stub tag. I'll familiarise myself with the Cite/Cite format, I've never really used wiki references before so I just copied Aragorn II. Thanks for the tip. --Aule the Smith 21:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Prince tally

Now, I've got all major books - LotR, Sil, Hobbit, UT, HoMe and Letters - in a word file. So, here's the tally of "Prince" (forgive me the hopey referencing):

  • Bilbo: "Not the fellow who used to tell such wonderful tales at parties, about dragons and goblins and giants and the rescue of princesses and the unexpected luck of widows' sons?" (Might be hobbit lore/ignorance) (unexpected party)
  • "With that he put on Bilbo a small coat of mail, wrought for some young elf-prince long ago." (not at home)
  • Elvenking to Bilbo: "You are more worthy to wear the armour of elf-princes than many that have looked more comely in it." (thief in the knight)
  • Gandalf on Glorfindel: "He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes" (so not a prince himself?) (Many Meetings)
  • Elrond on War of LA: "It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled" (CoE)
  • Aragorn on Mithril corslet: "Here's a pretty hobbit-skin to wrap an elven-princeling in!" (princeling would mean "son of a Prince"?) (Lothlórien)
  • Théoden on Gandalf: "Here now I name my guest, Gandalf Greyhame, wisest of counsellors; most welcome of wanderers, a lord of the Mark, a chieftain of the Eorlingas while our kin shall last; and I give to him Shadowfax, prince of horses." (King of Golden Hall)
  • Faramir on Aragorn leading: "Why so, and not Boromir, prince of the City that the sons of Elendil founded?" (Kinda surprised at this one.) (Window on the West)
  • Start with the ones that don't really need reference: Imrahil, Pippin (the latter not officially).
  • Some minstrel: "Lo! lords and knights and men of valour unashamed, kings and princes, and fair people of Gondor, and Riders of Rohan, and ye sons of Elrond, and Dúnedain of the North, and Elf and Dwarf, and greathearts of the Shire, and all free folk of the West, now listen to my lay. For I will sing to you of Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doom." (Quick. Hide Glenn Yarbrough) (Field of Cormallen)
  • Faramir as Prince. Ithilien is explicitely described as his princedom.
  • "Prince of Cardolan" - Appendix A
  • "In the days of Narmacil I their attacks began again, though at first with little force; but it was learned by the regent that the Northmen did not always remain true to Gondor, and some would join forces with the Easterlings, either out of greed for spoil, or in the furtherance of feuds among their princes." - App A again
  • Another App A: "He called himself King of Rhovanion, and was indeed the most powerful of the Northern princes, though his own realm lay between Greenwood and the River Celduin." (perhaps "prince" refers to any hereditary lord here, that is not called a King?)
  • App A, concerning Ëarnur: "Most of all, the horses were praised, for many of them came from the Vales of Anduin, and with them were riders tall and fair, and proud princes of Rhovanion."
  • "Princes of the Eldalië" - in a chapter title
  • "High princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman" - Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
  • "Thus spoke Maedhros and Maglor and Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir, Amrod and Amras, princes of the Noldor" - Of the flight of the noldor. "Princes of the Noldor" is the most used context of Prince in the Sil, though Princes of the Elves is also used from time to time
  • ibid.: "Olwë, prince of Alqualondë"
  • "Then Fingon prince of Hithlum..." - Return of the Noldor
  • "Gwindor son of Guilin, a very valiant prince" - Of the 5th battle
  • "Celeborn, prince of Doriath" (for how much that's worth considering UT. Note the lack of capitalization.) - of the ruin of Doriath
  • "princes of the Edain", Of Tuor & his coming. Seems to be the same context as "Princes of the Elves" - not a specific title.
  • Princess Shepperdess - Emerwen Aranel.
  • The Celeborn party: called a Telerin prince here. He could possible be both.
  • Concerning Gal & Cel: "These Elves had no princes or rulers,"
  • Amroth & Nimrodel: "Silvan Elves in origin, but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent"
  • Same source: "Amdír, a prince of Sindarin origin"
  • On the other Faramir: "The leader of the Éothéod then went to join Minohtar at the head of the North Road in Ithilien, who at that very moment was giving an order for a message to be taken to the Prince in Minas Tirith, who was now the King. It was then that the leader of the Éothéod gave him the news that the Prince had gone disguised to the battle, and had been slain." (Cirion & Eorl, Northmen & Wainriders)
  • On Galadwen: "of the marriage of his son Valacar to a princess of the Northmen" (C&E, note 8)
  • Note: left out a lot of Imrahil refs here.
Letters (Arda refs only)
  • Arnor princedoms, L131
  • L230, concerning the ring-bearer's praise: "Frodo and Sam, princes of the west"
  • L244: Some hierarchy at last: "Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it."

I'll save HoMe for later. It seems clear to me that we need to distinguish between "prince" and "Prince". -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 10:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If the only other uses are in the Machiavellian sense, referring to the leader of a state, or to refer to the son of a king then the article probably doesn't need to be expanded much after all. But I'm not sure what the best way to phrase it would be, since we're switching from talking 'in-universe' to 'out-of-universe'. --Aule the Smith 16:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Cardolan, Arthedain, Rhudaur, Dol Amroth, Ithilien, Alqualondë and Hithlum are the attested princedoms. A certain o-o-u is probably necessary to make it clear that the son of a King is not necessarily a Prince, and definately not the "Prince of {Region where Dad is King}". I mean, Charles is Prince - of Wales, not of England (or Great Britain). There needs to be some clarity on the "Prince as a generic term for ruler" and "Prince as the lowest rank of royalty". -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 16:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not sure I agree. The references to "prince of Alqualondë" and "prince of Hithlum" could equally just be using it the sense of "ruler of Alqualondë/Hithlum", especially since in this instance it's not capitalised. And the leaders of Cardolan, Arthedain and Rhudaur are, if I recall correctly, usually called Kings. And indeed, given the use of Prince in Gondor as a position subordinate to the king it seems unlikely that the rulers of the northern kingdoms would call themselves that and imply they were less than equals to the king in Gondor.
Charles is the Prince of Wales (a unique title and a good analogy for Prince of Dol Amroth) but he is also a prince in a more general sense. As are his sons, and even his father. You are correct to emphasis that this does not mean it would be correct to call any of them the Prince of something, but I think it is valid to say that in Middle-earth, as in Britain now and in Tolkien's day, the relatives of the reigning monarch can be called princes. Especially their children. --Aule the Smith 20:06, 28 September 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]