Talk:Second Kinslaying

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Latest comment: 28 July 2022 by Grace18 in topic Title

I was under the Impression that Doriath was 'Sacked' by the Dwarves of Nogrod, whereas the Sons of Fëanor were responsible for its ruin. If I am right then this article needs to me merged with the article called 'Ruin of Doriath', so that we'll have an article which describes both the events. What say you, Hyarion? -Legolas 09:06, 10 December 2006 (EST)

I too thought that the Sack of Doriath (i.e. the plunder of Doriath, not its downfall) was the Dwarves going to Doriath and theiving, whereas the fall of Doriath was by the sons of Fëanor. I don't, however, think this article should be merged with the other article as long as this article explains accurately what the Sack of Doriath really was. - Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:27, 10 December 2006 (EST)
I am opposed to a merge, personally. I agree that the "Sack of Doriath" refers to when the Dwarves killed the elves and stole their treasure (if it may be called "stealing"). Still, the two events were closely linked. But I don't think that the Sons of Fëanor actually sacked it. Therefore, I suggest that the content of this article be moved to "The Second Kinslaying". --Narfil Palùrfalas 13:02, 10 December 2006 (EST)
I agree with the poster above and believe that there should be two separate articles : "Sack of Doriath" and "The Second Kinslaying". The Sons of Fëanor plundered nothing, thank you very much. They came to recover the Silmaril, after the sacking. ~~ Þelma 14:13, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

Very nice job Legolas. I was hoping someone would fix this article. --Dwarf Lord 12:53, 15 December 2006 (EST)

Thanks Dwarf Lord. And Narfil,thanks for adding the image, now the article is really complete. The red template looks good but the black letters on a red background are a bit difficult to read.--Legolas 23:27, 15 December 2006 (EST)

I know. Unfortunately I do not know how to change the color of the letters, and therefore am hoping that Hyarion (or another) will change it. #F5DEB3 would look good for the background of the boxes (not the title bars), and #808000 would look good for the letters on the title bars, in my opinion. --Narfil Palùrfalas 12:18, 16 December 2006 (EST)
Just bringing this up again, hoping Hyarion (or someone who can do this) will notice and help. --Narfil Palùrfalas 07:41, 9 January 2007 (EST)
I've implemented your colour suggestions. I don't like the green, I have to be honest; the #F5DEB3 isn't too bad, but I think it would look better if it were a bit paler. — Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:09, 9 January 2007 (EST)
I agree with you on both points. Change it as you see fit. --Narfil Palùrfalas 10:16, 9 January 2007 (EST)
As they say in cricket, "How's that?!" — Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:12, 9 January 2007 (EST)
I wouldn't know - Americans don't play cricket. The template looks much better, thanks. --Narfil Palùrfalas 12:42, 9 January 2007 (EST)

Proper Quotes

Whether this article is re-written or moved, it needs some references. I recognize that a good chunk of the account towards the end of the article are quotes straight out of Of the Ruin of Doriath. These passages either need to be cited properly or reworded so they are not longer quotes.--Theoden1 19:45, 25 July 2008 (EDT)


I added an {{unnamed}} tag to the article because I could find no canonical source for the name "Sack of Doriath". Seeing the previous discussion above, I am surprised that it ended up referring only to the Second Kinslaying, as it was the Dwarves who sacked Doriath.

Unless there is no reason, such as any canonical source, I suggest that this article should be renamed to Second Kinslaying, which is a clearer name. Sage 14:11, 16 November 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

+1 I agree. This article is confusing and probably mis-titled. It does look like it is supposed to be the Second Kinslaying article and that is probably what it should become because there isn't one. The other event (the sacking or battle in the Thousand Caves) has its own article already. However, this article would probably be really short, is that okay? In source material, the second kinslaying was only three paragraphs of elf on elf violence. So, in a condensed summary, with a single reference, and maybe a quote or two max, it'd be rather brief. Elf-esteem 01:02, 30 November 2015 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for fixing the title, Mith! And apparently, I can't do short summaries. Future apologies to the editors who fix stuff after I've been there. --Elf-esteem 06:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I see the {{unnamed}} template on this page was removed in March 2016, possibly unintentionally. I propose adding it here again, along with on the Third Kinslaying page. In the Silmarillion index, "The Kinslaying" only refers to the attack at Alqualondë, and I cannot find any reference that uses the term for anything else. The attack on Dior and attack on the Havens of Sirion are called the "second" and "last and cruellest" slayings of Elf by Elf respectively, but without any definite names or the use of "Kinslaying". I think the naming system we have functions well enough, but I wanted to double check before I add the Unnamed template to the Second and Third Kinslaying articles. (We should also probably reduce the use of the word "kinslaying" to the Alqualondë article and use "slaying of Elf by Elf" or another term for the later two when mentioning them in various articles). Bringing up another previously discussed topic, this article says the second slaying may also be called the Ruin of Doriath, although what I can find in the Silmarillion seems to indicate that the "Ruin of Doriath" likely includes the death of Thingol, departure of Melian, waning of Doriath's power, and the slaying of Dior as the final stroke. What should we do with the concept of the Ruin of Doriath? --Grace18 03:26, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Okay, never mind, found Second and Third Kinslaying in HoMe (Thanks LorenzoCB! thought I checked but missed it, I guess). We should still keep in mind the Silmarillion doesn't name them, so when using references from there it's probably better to avoid the term. Not sure about the exact nature of the Ruin of Doriath though. --Grace18 18:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]