I just deleted the reference to the Mediterranean because: 1. Middle-earth corresponds for the larger part with North-Western Europe, and 2. 'mediterraneus' in Latin doesn't mean 'Middle-earth', but "midland, inland, remote from the sea".
- Thanks for catching that one Earendilyon, unfortunately my Latin is lacking and I assumed (which I shouldn't have done) that the translation was correct. Thanks for the correction! --Hyarion 15:47, 1 February 2006 (EST)
- I don't agree. Mediterranean displays the latin sense of the word terra as both 'earth' and 'land'. And couldn't by any means refer to a midland remote from the sea, since it refers to lands around the sea. The name refers to the belief that meditrranean (where Romans and Greeks were) was the centre of the world. Sage 23:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I did the rewrite. Just some discussion. Firstly, I would like to try my hand at creating a basic map of Arda in Bryce, in 3d graphics. Secondly, we should add some references. Unfortunately, I don't know where this information is to be found. By the way, if nobody likes the rewrite, we can just copy-paste the Wikipedia article again, I suppose. Anyway, I just laid down the base. It still needs expanding. --Narfil Palùrfalas 16:04, 2 April 2007 (EDT)
The Map (And what is wrong with it)
Looking through Vol 4 of The History of Middle Earth I can see right off a few things wrong with it.
First of all, before the beginning of any of the Ages, even before Melkö fled to Utumno, the Lamps were at the North and South of the Entire World with a great Island in the Sea of Helcar, and the Blue, Grey, Red and ... a fourth range (I cannot recall the name of the other, as I just lost my place... I will come back and correct this as soon as I find it again) split the Eastern Continent into four parts, of which Beleriand was but one in the most NW of Endor.
That would make the map on this article a little inaccurate to even have the locations of the Lamps, much less the Sea of Helcar, which supposedly became Beleager after the fall of the lamps, The Shattering of the Island that the Vala had made their home upon, and the changing of Middle Earth.
Then, Utumno was far, far to the North of ME, not to the NE. Khand is to the southeast of the southern corner of the Mountains of Ash, not to the immediate east of Nurn/Nurnen.
The Size of Beleriand
Also, Beleriand is only about the size of Eriador, The hill of Himring and Dorthonion are still islands off the North West coasts of Forochel (called Himling, and the remains of Dorthonion I cannot recall the name of right now - but it too is mentioned in vol 4 of The History of Middle Earth). If you look at the scale marking on the Map of Beleriand that comes with The Silmarillion and the Map of Middle Earth that comes with The Lord of the Rings, you will see that the scale markings on the Middle Earth Map are half the size of those on the Map of Beleriand (meaning that the lands are roughly twice the area on the Middle Earth Map as the Beleriand Map).
While the map is a nice and pretty map... It should be relegated to the same genre as maps of the earth during the Dark/Middle Ages. While the maps of the Earth created from 500CE to 1600CE often had all of the correct places marked upon them... Those places were often in the wrong place or the wrong size.
Considerations for a New Map
In this context, this map is awesome, as it reflects a people who did not yet have the technology to create an accurate map of the world (I imagine that the Númenórëan Maps and the Elven Maps of the Teleri would have been very accurate... I have already begun work on a unified First Age Map of Middle Earth that contains Beleriand and the East, and it works many of the details of the map given in this article (I know that I have a book somewhere that has this map in it, but most of my library is still in TX and I am in CA). For Instance, if you take the given distances on the Map of Middle Earth, you can see that it covers an Area roughly consistent with Denmark to the Atlas Mountains (or possibly the southern extent of the Sahara Desert), which would make this area roughly consistent to 1000 miles below the Arctic Circle to around 1000 Miles north of the Equator.
If you use these measurements with the Map of Beleriand placed to the West of Eriador, then you will see that the Entrance to Angband is roughly around the Area of Stavanger Norway (Latitude wise), which places it around 700 Miles below the Arctic Circle... I would have placed Utumno right at the Arctic Circle extending in size right up to the Pole (remember though, at this point the world was still flat, as it was during the First and most of the 2nd Age).
Also, you need to remember that given Utumno's relation to Angband (Angband was significantly to the south and east), that this means that the true "North" direction once the world was made round points more in the direction of North-NorthWest from the Map of Middle Earth... There are very subtle things like this to take into account in positioning areas on the map...
I before had ask this question a few years ago on mainstream Wikipedia itself probably on Tolkien's page or even Arda's page itself. I was answered at the time but since then I hadn't seen it ever since or isn't there anymore or whatever happen to it. I had ask it as I had a great curiousity about it back then. But I have once again came here so in part of it not there being there anymore to read it and to see whats your answer to it is,and such. Thanks.
- Nope. None. And we don't know their funeral customs either. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, there have been several references to funeral rites-- barrows in Arnor, burial mounds near Edoras, the mound of Finduilas in the First Age, Rath Dínen in Minas Tirith. What I haven't seen is any LGBT scenes anywhere in the Tolkien legendarium.-- 21:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
First of all, I would like to question the main map. It's by David Day, made before the HoME or the UT were published and highly questionable. I find silly that Middle-earth is just a lump of land containing only the westlands Ringil and Helcar and nothing else. I don't think it would be Tolkien's intention since his early maps show that he imagined M-e not unlike eurasia, with an africa-like continent to the south. And last of all, it is not readable or clear.
Now I would like to put the question of licenses. It is not clear to me still what maps can we upload etc etc. That Smeagol guy (who joined the wiki) had made some maps himself, however I read that he had some copyright issues. What kind of issues since they were his own creations?
Sage 01:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Sage, sorry for not responding to your previous map inquiry, I agree, the map should be changed to something more accurate. Are there any in Category:Maps that you think would work? Regarding the copyright of Tolkien maps, since any fan-created map is a derivative of Tolkien's original maps, and includes trademarked names then technically I think the Estate can ask to have them taken offline. I believe that whole fiasco was around the time of The Maps of Tolkien's Middle-earth publication and luckily I don't know of any sites that have had to take down maps since. --Hyarion 01:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have to agree that the map is woefully inaccurate and we shouldn't promote (and, I would argue, even resort to a map of Middle-earth just to avoid putting that one up). If I may suggest some maps (as some of you know I have a large collection myself): File:John_Ohara_-_Arda_in_the_Second_Age.jpg|John Ohara's Arda in the Second Age[former link], and the ones by Quentin Lowargie (here, here and here).
- Of ones we don't have uploaded (that I can find), I would recommend any of the various maps excellently created by the late Karen Wynn Fonstad (such as this one). There is, also, the maps created by Sally Davies which appear in David Day's Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia, which although aren't hugely detailed and accurate (but, I don't think that's the objective of the maps, I think they are deliberately quite vague for artistic effect), are very colourful and would look very nice on the page.
Size of Arda
1) If I try the same superposition of map V and Beleriand than Karen Fonstad, even with her Beleriand's map, it drives me to 4500 miles rather than 6800.
2) If there's a Tolkien's text which said that "round Arda" should have the same size as Earth, what's the reference ? if not, I think the mention of this relation should not be mentionned.
Furthermore, using the latitude equivalences, (Oxford-Hobbiton / Umbar-Cyprus), it leads to 1 degree = about 66 miles, and then a round world of (66x360) 23 760 miles of circumference ; this value is close to the Earth's size.
I'll let you change what you think it have to be changed
(sorry for my english, i'm from Brittany :) )