Talk:Dagor Dagorath

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Latest comment: 18 February by LorenzoCB in topic The name Dagor Delothrin

Inspiration[edit source]

This article states that the Dagor Dagorath is clearly inspired by and bears many similarities to Ragnarök. In Norse mythology, both the giants and the gods are destroyed. To me, it seems, it bears more resemblance to the Biblical Last Battle. According to the book of Revelation, there will be a great battle between Michael and his angels versus Satan, and Satan, called the dragon, will be cast down and bound for a thousand years. This resembles the War of Wrath. At the end of the thousand years (which might be literal or not; a thousand years was in Jewish culture symbolic of a very long time), Satan will be released and decieve the world, and make war on God. Then he'll be cast down again, this time permanently, and a new world made. I believe in Norse myth, the world is just made out of the ruins after Ragnarök. Now, I think that the Christian prophecy is much more similar to the Dagor Dagorath than the Norse Ragnarök. Therefor, unless I am wrong or Tolkien actually connected the two himself, I believe that it is wrong to say definitely that the Dagor Dagorath was inspired by Ragnarök. It's possible, of course, but as long as there isn't any evidence, I am going to delete that statement. --Narfil Palùrfalas 14:14, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

While I have little knowledge of the different events based on your analysis I'm going to agree. --Hyarion 14:33, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

You are quite right Narfil. As a Christian myself, I found this prophesy surprisingly similiar to Revelation. So yes I agree. --Dwarf Lord 15:54, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

Notes[edit source]

The rewrite tag is indeed warranted; it's a bit disheartening to see that both the One Wiki and Wikipedia have better articles about the subject than TG. In any case, here are just two passages (noted in a Tolkien Society FB group discussion) to be included in future updates to our article:

  • “[...]and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days. And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom.” (Ch 3, Silm)
  • “But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.” (Akkallabeth, Silm)

--Morgan 19:25, 10 February 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

After rewriting[edit source]

These are my requests for future editors:

  • I am aware that the section "History" is more a study than a proper description of the event. But this is due the complicated topic. What we should NEVER do is explain the event mixing all the versions arround!
  • I do think that the only note in The Istari is of doubtful canonicity and maybe it should be in "Other versions of the legendarium", but the page's name is "Dagor Dagorath", so the note must be included in the "History" section.
  • No battle template, please: this article is not about just the battle, but also and even more important, the Second Prophecy of Mandos.
  • Christopher's removing the Prophecy is right and the starting point to other versions.
  • The page about Arda Unmarred should be improved and not mixed with this.

--LorenzoCB 18:13, 26 August 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Suggestion[edit source]

What if we moved this page to "Second Prophecy of Mandos” to discuss the prophecy and the omission by Christopher Tolkien? Maybe we should make a new page to discuss the specifics of the "Last Battle" as it deserves its own focus for those who want to see it with the battle template and without the discussion of its disputed canon. Also, Last Battle is used more frequently than Dagor Dagorath and appears along with Day of Doom within the published version of "The Silmarillion". Also, it seems like the Day of Doom may be another name for the prophecy itself and would fit with the "Doom of Mandos" page.Dour1234 (talk) 04:45, 25 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nah. This is not a normal battle, but an eschatological event. No battle template. Making other article makes no sense: the content of the prophecy is the Last Battle and Mandos prophesying does not appear until later versions. I won't repeat the naming policy; Dagor Dagorath stays. --LorenzoCB (talk) 10:04, 25 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I only brought up possibly changing the name because on this very talk page you yourself mentioned this:

I do think that the only note in The Istari is of doubtful canonicity and maybe it should be in "Other versions of the legendarium", but the page's name is "Dagor Dagorath", so the note must be included in the "History" section.

I believe this is a contradiction in the naming policy. If the note is of doubtful canonicity, than should we not change the page name to a more canon name? Or what happens when the popular name is slightly inaccurate, but more popular? Also, on an unrelated note, I am currently working on Forward to the Notion Club Papers (and have been working on it for some time in a word document). Dour1234 (talk) 14:24, 25 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There I wasn't questioning the article's name. If you asked me even back there (I would never use the term "canon" nowadays), I'd agreed that the article should be named after the most known name. "Or what happens when the popular name is slightly inaccurate, but more popular?": the name is not inaccurate, it's Tolkien's. Please don't worry with such questions. --LorenzoCB (talk) 20:13, 25 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The name Dagor Delothrin[edit source]

I believe that the name "Dagor Delothrin" from the list of names in LR is a reference to the War of Wrath, not Dagor Dagorath. It explicitly says in the list that "The reference given is to AB I annal 250" where the battle at the end of the first age is described. Unsigned comment by Delothiel (talk • contribs).

Yes, you are right. Let me check the sources and I'll change it asap. Thanks! --LorenzoCB (talk) 13:22, 18 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]