Talk:Durin's Bane

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Main image[edit]

The main image was changed months ago without discussion, but I propose to change it with this of the same artist, which is more detailed and is not already used. --LorenzoCB 11:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I've just taken a look through the gallery and have to admit I prefer the previous image. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 12:27, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Agreed with your choice, both are nice pictures and I don't mind which one is picked. Gaetano 22:06, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Gender?[edit]

In this article, Durin's Bane is referred to as both "it" and "he". Which is more correct? -- Ancalagon the Black 17:27, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd say "he," since Durin's Bane is specifically referred to as a male by Gandalf in The Two Towers (Chapter 5 to be specific). --Holdwine Meriadoc (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 20:28, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
In The Fellowship of the Ring, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, the Balrog is always referred to as "it". Some of that might come from its originally unknown nature, but even after Gimli identifies it as Durin's Bane, "it" is still used. But Holdwine Meriadoc is definitely right in that in Chapter 5 of The Two Towers (The White Rider), Gandalf always uses "he" when he gives his account of the encounter. I would go ahead and go with "he" here, which would make it consistent with the articles for Gothmog (balrog) and Lungorthin. --Grace18 02:58, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Makes sense. Thank you both! -- Ancalagon the Black 03:24, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

When came the Balrog to Moria?[edit]

In the article it is suggested, that this balrog escaped the battle at the end of the First Age and went to Moria. No references are given, and it doesn't make sense. Durin had discovered Moria during the First Age and there was no disturbance until Sauron came in the Second Age. So I don't see any possibility for this balrog to sneak in. I would rather suggest, that Melkor put him there himself, when he raised the Misty Mountains in the Days of the Trees, before the Elves came. Durin was laid under Mount Gundabad by Aule even before. --172.69.22.226 01:18, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing that up. I agree with you, if we can't find a source for that statement then it should be removed. Feel free to remove/rephrase as you see fit. If you have any questions just let me know. We appreciate your help! --Hyarion 02:07, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
"The Balrog is a survivor from the Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. So is Shelob. The Balrogs, of whom the whips were the chief weapons, were primeval spirits of destroying fire, chief servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age. They were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, his fortress in the North. But it is here found (there is usually a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains)."
Letter 144 - IvarTheBoneless 01:20, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Ivar saves the day! I've updated the article. Thank you! --Hyarion 01:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
"Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth."
J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, "Durin's Folk", fourth paragraph, p. 954 One does not even need to look at the letter of J.R.R. Tolkien, the answer can be found in appendix A of The Lord of the Rings itself. I already added that reference to the Durin's Bane page. --Akhorahil 08:57, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Great! Now there are references!--162.158.166.66 18:08, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Ivar is quoting Letter 144 and unfortunately I don't have the Letters with me. Is "Hithaeglin" a typo of Carpenter/Christopher or Ivar? It would correspond to the mistake on the map made by Christopher, corrected in the "Unfinished Tales". This would be interesting.--172.69.33.42 18:21, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Letter 144 is dated 25 April 1954. It uses the spelling "Hithaeglin" (i.e. with an "n" at the end). Have you looked on The First Map of The Lord of the Rings (i.e. the one with the electronic label MIDDLE-EARTH on archive.org on the maps page of the Tolkien Estate? J.R.R. Tolkien's handwriting is notoriously hard to read and the Sindarin name in square brackets on the east side of the northern end of the Misty mountains can be (errouneously) interpreted as Hithaeglin. The map is interesting, because it contains some additional features, such as the downs in the Eastemenet and the mountains are shown as contour lines like on the Map of Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor. Like Christopher Tolkien's General Map of Middle-earth, which is based on this map it shows a larger area of Middle-earth including a part of Harad below Umbar. --Akhorahil 07:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
This is interesting. Yes, I know this map and that Tolkien's handwriting is difficult. Christopher corrected the wrong spelling in 1980 in the map published with the Unfinished Tales and in 1981 in the Letters the spelling is wrong again. This is odd.--172.70.206.86 06:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Humphrey Carpenter, the editor of the book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" mentions in the introduction that he transcribed all the letters and that Christopher Tolkien commented on the transcription and suggested for changes. It is not mentioned which letters were handwritten and which letters were typed with a typewriter. As a consequence it is possible that letter 144 was handwritten by J.R.R. Tolkien and that Humphrey Carpenter erroeously read the "r" at the end of handwirtten "Hithaeglir" as an "n" and that Christopher Tolkien did not spot that error in the transcription (we do not know if Christopher Tolkien read all the handwritten letters to double-check the transcription or if he only read the transcriptions). None of the manuscripts of earlier versions of The Lord of the Rings seem to use the spelling Hithaeglin and in Morgoth's Ring the spelling Hithaeglir is used. So it could be an error in reading J.R.R. Tolkien's difficult handwriting. --Akhorahil 10:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Nameless Terror[edit]

Both the infobox and the article mention the name "Nameless Terror". I have searched The Lord of the Rings, Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth, The Peoples of Middle-earth and The Lord of the Rings - A Reader's Companion and could not find a use of the name "Nameless Terror" and could not find a source for that name. Does anybody know the source or is it an incorrect name? --Akhorahil 09:55, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Definitely fanon. I've checked too and there is not trace of that name. The closest to it is in the Appendix A, in which he is called "thing of terror" and Aragorn mentioning "the coming of the Terror" in "The Mirror of Galadriel". I'll remove that now. --LorenzoCB 10:10, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Durin's Bane is called "the nameless fear" (not terror) by Gimli at the Council of Elrond. It's not clear if that was an established name or just a turn of phrase by Gimli. --Pachyderminator 17:23, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Nice catch! Not capitalized, so nope, not worthy. --LorenzoCB 17:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)