User talk:Morgan/2009–11

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Hello {{{name}}}, and welcome to Tolkien Gateway! I hope you like the place and choose to join our work. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and we look forward to your future edits. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the Council forums, join our chat or ask me on my talk page. Keep up the great work!


You're making it way too difficult. If you want to make a footnote, just type:

The text.<ref>The source</ref>

The text between the <ref> tags ends up where you place "<references/>", or in our case, "{{references}}". This template includes the header "References", so there's no need to add that. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:52, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Renaming pages[edit]

It's a lot simpler if you just click "move" at the top of the page. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 19:42, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Any idea why I can't put a signature? I changed web browser to Google Chrome, perhaps that's why? --Morgan
Have you followed all the instructions in Help:Signatures (creating a page User:Morgan/sig etc.)? If so, then I'm not sure! --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
It seems like it was Chrome's fault. I switched back to Explorer and now I find the buttons above the edit frame again. --Morgan 14:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


In book titles, yes. In normal language, no. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 15:04, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Note to myself (for future bibliographical editing): Nouns in Dutch book titles are capitalized. --Morgan 15:07, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
My statement caused me to spin around and look at my book cabinets... mixed bag actually. Some have all-caps, some none, some only the first word, some all words, some are given names, some have one on the spine but another on the cover... I think it's safest to stay with what the cover has. Not just for Dutch, but for all languages. If it's all caps, no capitalization unless it's a given name. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 15:13, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I can confirm what Ederchil says. Looking just at the editions of the Dutch translation of LotR, I can find IN DE BAN VAN DE RING and In de Ban van de Ring, and for RotK DE TERUGKEER VAN DE KONING, De Terugkeer van de Koning and De terugkeer van de koning, and likewise for other works of Tolkien in Dutch translation. These are all official editions by Het Spectrum or their successors. Nevertheless, when giving the book title independent of any actual edition, the norm is to capitalize each noun in the title (and the first word, of course) - at least that is how it is with Tolkien’s works. We also abbreviate to IdBvdR. Outside of titles, only proper names are capitalized in Dutch, and the norm for titles seems to be eroding as well. — Mithrennaith 23:06, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

LOTRO going free-to-play[edit]

The Lord of the Rings Online going free-to-play is true. It should be happening some time in the Fall. I'm guessing it will be late August or September. There will be two levels of free-to-play members: free player and premium player. Since you bought the CD, I'm guessing when you join you'll be a premium player. You should be able to explore at least the Shadow of Angmar content, but you'll need to buy other things in order to open them up (such as bag space, max amount of gold you can have, other expansions). There is a good blog post here that summarizes it very well. --Pinkkeith 18:05, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


Hi Morgan; are you free on Sunday for the Meeting? It'll be at 7pm (GMT) and we'll be discussing various issues which have cropped up; there's only 3 of us at the moment which is a pretty sorry attendance indeed! --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 22:31, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi! Since I haven't been around long enough to experience past meetings, I initially thought I'd just drop by and watch the discussion move along. But I guess it can't be that difficult to join! I'll put my sign on the page. Stockholm has GMT +2, so it must be 9 pm local time for me, right (I'm a newbie to this, hehe)? /Cheers --Morgan 22:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't let that put you off: the more the merrier! Yeah, 9 o'clock your time (we've had these confusions before, so we have a list of times here). --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 08:16, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


I don’t think any standard has been laid down yet, but one is being developed, more or less. Earlier relevant discussions here and here. The gist is that there is no objection to redirects, where they serve a purpose, i.e. alternative names, common short forms and misspellings, or parts of something that has a thorough article, as long as there is nothing relevant to say about the alternative name or part in itself.

The important thing, however, is that pages should not link to redirects, so you should not link [[La kunularo de l' ringo‎]], but [[La mastro de l' ringoj|La kunularo de l' ringo‎]]. — Mithrennaith 23:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Tolkien societies[edit]

To avoid page names like "Country-ish Tolkien Society" or "Tolkien Society of Country", which look, IMHO, rather stupid, could you create pages under their "official" name in the society's own language? -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 21:02, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I will try to do this (and perhaps move some existing pages). Thanks.--Morgan 21:03, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be some options on how to name the pages. One, which has been used on several, is "X (Tolkien Society)", where X often equals a concept in the legendarium. As many Tolkien Societies (TS) are so named, do you think we should give the page name (e.g.) "Bri, Tolkienselskabet i København", rather than "Bri (Tolkien Society)"? --Morgan 21:12, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I think these are good ideas, provided there are also redirects in place for the English name and the short name (if different in each case, of course). Also note that the official name of several societies does explicitly not include the name of the country (or adjectival form of this), nevertheless these are often called by country or region names, as e.g. Tolkien Society Unquendor often called ‘Dutch Tolkien Society’ and The Tolkien Society Forodrim sometimes called the Tolkien Society of Stockholm. Although these names are officially deprecated, maybe we should still have redirects for them. And there is a difference between ‘Tolkien Society’ and ‘Tolkien society’. I’ll try to organise some of my thoughts on Talk:Unquendor if I find time ... — Mithrennaith 18:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Mithrennaith, I'll just create the pages for now, and then we can later figure the best way to entitle them.--Morgan 18:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Uncertain nationality[edit]

We should probably make up a cat for people of unknown nationality, as a sort of to-do list. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 17:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

  • Smart idea! I'll start to implement too. --Morgan 17:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Syntax Error[edit]

Ederchil: If possible, maybe you should temporarily lock the database for editing. I can't access your talk page any more. My worry is that further editing leads to a corruption of the database. --Morgan 08:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd need access to the code for that. Oh yeah, and access to someone who knows how it works. I've emailed Hyar.
As for not being able to access my talk, I moved it to yours.
Usually, reloading should do the trick. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 08:42, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite of English and Welsh[edit]

I doubt I'll actually be able to do much because I don't have a copy of Scholar and Storyteller or The Monsters and the Critics, but could you post a link to the lotrplaza thread anyway so I can see what they had to say about the article (on its talk page possibly)? It would give a very good impression if we could promptly fix an article being 'bashed' on another site. —Aulë the Smith (Tk·Cb) 22:16, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Aule. I have those works, so I can have a look at it later. --Morgan 08:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Citation templates[edit]

In most cases {{HM}} has been superseded by individual templates for each work, which are easier to use because they can do the chapters automatically. So instead of <ref>{{HM|S}}, "[[Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor]]".</ref> you can now just do <ref>{{S|3}}.</ref>. Hope that helps. —Aulë the Smith (Tk·Cb) 10:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll start using them (as you might have noticed, I'm not much of a tech guy ;)). --Morgan 10:34, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


When you're citing mailing lists like Lambengolmor or Elfling, make sure to include the number of the message. I did a quick scan of the front page and couldn't find anything; directly linking to the post might help. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:11, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'll think of that. This particular message is a bit tricky, since Hostetter gave the announcement attached inside a message from another guy (all messages are moderated by Hostetter). --Morgan 11:44, 6 November 2010 (UTC)


Any chance you can upload the image of Bergil that's supposed to be in there? That's a character that could really do with an image. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 19:02, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

No problem, I'll have a look. --Morgan 19:08, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. We really need an inventory of which obscure characters have images in those card- and role playing games. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 20:08, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Ederchil, for your knowledge (perhaps you've guessed it by now!) - I'm systematically going through all the MECCG cards, looking for pictures we lack. I'm using all the obvious cards. --Morgan 23:11, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I noticed. I've been going through decipher cards myself. And the old MERP books have some obscurer characters too. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 23:16, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
I'll take a look in the MERP books too, in the future. BTW, do you use Photoshop when editing pics? Many black and white pictures in the MERP books haven't turned out so good in the original scan, so it's often good to add contrast (making the black totally black, when it's supposed to be, rather than greyish).--Morgan 23:19, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Actually, had some Spanish translation in pdfs. So I sorta cheated. My own scanner is rubbish, if it even works. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 23:26, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Sure. Since you cannot buy the MERP books any longer (abandonware), I don't feel bad about pdfs. I have every single MERP supplement as pdf (and quite a few "hardware" too, bought on eBay). --Morgan 23:31, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
I do have Lords of Middle-earth III. I found it at an antiquarian last week. It's what made me look for more. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:38, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
The problem with some of those MERP images is, however, that they're way too big. The images of Dora Baggins, Cotman and Bucca would all seriously mess up the article. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 10:37, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


We have a lot of images that are from Middle-earth Role Playing and Middle-earth Collectible Card Game. Do you think we could make up a fair use statement for these images similar to Template:Fairuse-lotro that was use for images taken from The Lord of the Rings Online? There are also other templates for copyrights at Category:Copyright templates that you could use as a template to create on for MERP and MCCG. --Pinkkeith 21:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Guessing Morgan's answer: Yes. There's no such thing as too many templates when it comes to this. I had plans to make a master fairuse template a year back, but it kinda got shelved. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 21:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree, it would be perfect to have such a fair use template. I'll keep it in mind, but it would be nice if someone (with experience on this) cuold help out. --Morgan 22:10, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
You can usually find the copyright information on the offical webpage for the game. Yet, I think the two listed above are now defunct. You could find the information for the role playing books on the first or second page. Uusally it is about two-thirds down the second page or at the bottom of the first page. It would be more difficult finding the information for the card game. Usually there is a brief copyright information on the card itself. The more detailed information will either be in small print on the foil housing the cards or the box the card packs or stored in. I find the information for LOTRO at the offical website. --Pinkkeith 22:31, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll turn my attention to it soon.--Morgan 22:32, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


That's right. These words with ā ē ī ō ū are Primitive Quendian. Personally I ignore Tolkien's asterisks. I use asterisks only when a PQ word is a theoretical reconstruction, not given by Tolkien. Sage 13:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I see that you use the diacritics ā ē ī ō ū for PQ, as Tolkien did in the Etym; so far I preferred to use â ê î ô û, simply because this form is used in Ardalambion, and perhaps is more sure to display in most systems.

Unlike the case of e/ë, I don't have any preference over the bar or the circumflex; only that we must settle to one of them to avoid conflict and red links. If we settle on the bars, perhaps we should update the existing PQ links. Sage 15:09, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, we need set a standard for this. Do you know if there is any reason why Ardalambion uses "^" as a substitute (i.e., for more than just "convinience")? If, for example, looking at the the Corrigenda and Addenda (VT) to the Etymologies, great care is taken in using the right diacritics (although, as CT notes in the LR, that there "is a great deal of inconsistency between the different parts of the manuscript", p. 346). Also, note that it is easy to create redirects (where no diacritics are used), in order to facilitate searches (and internal linking) on TG. (BTW, did you notice that a User:Ardalambion just registered?). --Morgan 15:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure if we should use special accents such as ĭ or ī for Quenya and Sindarin words. They are linguistic marks which simply indicate short and long vowels, qualities already covered by the 'standard' spelling. mĭrya is simply "mirya" (short i) and mīra is simply "míra" (long i). Nothing more, nothing less. It would be better to prefer the standard marking to avoid ambiguity. Pluralism is not good (and that's like I dislike ë). Sage 11:39, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

True, I investigated the matter more closely and we should perhaps override such specialized linguistic marks. However, I would like them to be present in the article text somehow, perhaps like this:
'''''mirya''''' (attested form ''mĭrya'', using the linguistic mark [[Wikipedia:Breve|breve]]) is a [[Quenya]]...
What do you think? But I have to say: pluralism is good and necessary, at least in this world and time! --Morgan 14:42, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Would this be valid for Valarin words too, which often carry such marks? (like Mirubhōze)? --Morgan 14:49, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


The double asterisk is explained in asterisk :) Sage 21:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Wanted Categories[edit]

Save for Lothlórien, Doriath and Essays, I think you are responsible for creating most of these. Do you think you could sort through them and decide what needs keeping and what needs recatting as I don't know the structure for these things? Thanks. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:18, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

You think wrongly (if you're referring to the linguistic categories, those were mostly suggested by Sage). But I'll try to sort them out during the weekend or next week.--Morgan 16:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
My apologies! Do you still want to sort them, or shall I put this message on Sage's talk page? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:06, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
No problem! ;) I can try to sort it out (the language categories need som e work anyway).--Morgan 22:04, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

File licensing[edit]

The old copyright templates should no longer be applied to new images; please use the new system. -- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  16:47, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you![edit]

I see that you've been applying the new copyright templates to files that you've uploaded. I just want to say thank you for the hard work!-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  10:35, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome! --Morgan 20:36, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


You might be interested in the changes I've made to Template:Book, and you might find Template:ISBN useful (in use on J.R.R. Tolkien: The Shores of Middle-earth). --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 17:35, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Looks good! Do you think we should use this template for journals too? --Morgan 12:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I did add ISSN to the template but I was thinking that, actually, we should have a specific journal template (perhaps along the lines of the Amon Hen or Mallorn ones)? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)