User talk:Hyarion/Archive 2

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Archive This is an archive of inactive discussion. Please do not edit it. If you wish to revitalize an old topic, bring it up on the active talk page.

Need Help With Footnotes![edit]

Hyarion, I need help getting the footnotes working on the Chamber of Mazarbul page. Could you help? Thanks so much.

-Old Took

I saw you added that on the talk page but wasn't sure what you meant as the links work fine for me. What doesn't seem to be working for you? When I click them it sends the page down to align the top line with the relevant footnote, and when you click the up arrow it will jump you back up to the in-text citation. Am I missing something? Keep in mind the footnotes aren't very effective as the page can only scroll so much, thus rending it incapable of going all the way down to the correct reference. --Hyarion 22:24, 3 April 2006 (EDT)
Sorry, it was a browser problem of mine. Everything's fine now! -Old Took

Barrowdowns Mb[edit]

Hey Hyarion,

I like your idea about the MB, I say lets do it.-Goldfinger


Hi Hyarion Firstly love this site! Secondly we have a troll adding porn links: Hfskodweyb I have edited and deleted the nonesense twice but it reappears. you may need to block this spammer Unsigned comment by Sancho proudfoot (talk • contribs).

Good morning Sancho! Yes unfortunately we do get bots from time to time. Luckily they are just trying to gain PageRank so they normally try to hide the links. In an upcoming patch we will be forcing unregistered users to type in some random numbers/letters from an image to stop the bots. This one managed to register which makes it a bit more difficult to stop but the best we can do is add an extension that only allows people to edit X amount of pages in X amount of minutes which I'm looking into as well. Thanks for keeping an eye on it.
--Hyarion 10:57, 14 April 2006 (EDT)

Ñoldor vs. Noldor[edit]

Hello. You asked about the use of ñ, and the answer's pretty complicated. First let me say the I changed the n to ñ just to be consistent in the text - I really don't care much one way or the other. And here's the long story behind it all...

Ñ is used as a nasal plosive by Tolkien, so it would sound something like "ng" in "song" or "king". This is Quenya in its purist form. The Vanyar in Aman would say "Ñoldor", not "Noldor". Occasionally you will even see "Ñoldor" spelled "Ngoldor". However, in Middle Earth, the mixing of languages changed pronounciations, so by the Third Age an elf would just as likely say "Noldor", as "Ñoldor". Older pronounciations did continue into the Third Age; for example the name "Elrond". Quenya in the Third Age tended to drop the "d" at the end of words, but Elrond was always referred to by his archaic name, rather than by "Elron".

You wanted citations, but I can't name them off the top of my head. Check out this page: for more info. He's a linguist that knows his stuff and where I got my knowledge of Quenya.

So there you go, the sordid tale of "ñ". The whole thing comes down to whether the text is referring to ancient "Ñoldor" or the "Noldor" of the Third Age. If a final decision needs to be made, I would use "Noldor" throughout the site and mention in passing that "Ñoldor" is the older spelling and pronounciation of the word.

Hope this helps. --ebakunin

More on Spam[edit]

In regards to the spam comment above: since the site uses MediaWiki, it's very easy to disallow anonymous editing. While it will slightly slow down the growth of the site, it adds a layer of protection that a wiki needs to stay relevant to its audience. Few bots can handle the complexity of registering, especially if email confirmation is required. It's a bit of a pain for casual users, but it's worth it in the long run. Just my two cents. --ebakunin

Thanks for your input. While I think at this point in time disallowing anonymous editing goes a bit against the wiki definition, a new version of the engine has been released which forces anonymous editors to type a randomly generated word which would stop the spam bots rather effectively. Email confirmation is something which currently is required but should bots continue to register then we will require it (or force a word verification on register). --Hyarion 19:19, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

Requested articles[edit]

If it is possible, it might be good to allow those who have not logged in request a page or request a page’s expansion. Narfil Palùrfalas 16:05, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

That's definitely something I've had in the queue for a while. I'll try and add that today, on second thought I'll just add that right now. Even if they aren't logged in they can still make whatever page they want, and just add the {{stub}} tag to let us know it needs to be worked on. But I still think we need a Request an article and maybe like you said a request a page's expansion. Maybe we can just add the stub tag if we want it to be expanded, and then have a "Expansion of the week" where each week we focus on a stub and work on rewriting it and making it better. Thanks for the input. --Hyarion 16:16, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

Uploading pictures[edit]

I Have been trying to add a photo, but I get the message ".jpg]] is not a valid picture format"

What am I doing wrong ( perhaps you can give an 'idiot's guide' on adding photos. (The one I wish to upload is saved in my hard drive) Unsigned comment by Sancho proudfoot (talk • contribs).

Odd, I've never had any problems with uploading images. What is the destination filename you are using? From here it looks like you are maybe typing the destination filename as "[[Blah.jpg]]" when all you really need to say is "Blah.jpg", no need for any brackets. Let me know if that helps. When I upload images I don't even bother altering the destination filename as it will automatically insert whatever your file is called on your computer. --Hyarion 15:52, 17 April 2006 (EDT)
Ok that worked, but haven't any idea of how to link it to the relevant page. Can you move it please? Unsigned comment by Sancho proudfoot (talk • contribs).
Great! I'll go ahead and show you how to link and let you do it, better to teach than to do :) Here is an example of the image at Alan Lee:
[[Image:Alan Lee (Greg Martin Photography).jpg|thumb|200px|Image of ''Alan Lee'' courtesy of [ Greg Martin Photgraphy]]]
The first part "Image:Alan Lee (Greg Martin Photography).jpg" is your image name, make sure to include the .jpg What I usually do is go to the actual image and copy the title. Then if you want it to be a thumbnail, which I usually do, I add |thumb, then if its not the right size you can specify how many pixels you want, |200px to |300px is usually around the average. Then you can specify the caption. After that add your closing brackets and you are good to go. Let me know if you have any questions. --Hyarion 16:11, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

Non-standard Text[edit]


I was hoping the wiki could add a list of non-standard letters at the bottom of the edit page, like the list featured in Wikipedia. It would help with First Age entries, where there are a lot of accents. Thanks for the help. --Ebakunin 02:15, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

Good morning Ebakunin, this is a feature which I've been meaning to implement, thanks for reminding me. If you haven't already noticed I've added the extension and you can now insert special characters :) I don't think we need as many characters as Wikipedia so if you see any unnecessary ones feel free to remove them from MediaWiki talk:Edittools Thanks for your continued contributions --Hyarion 11:47, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

Duplicate Entries[edit]

To decrease the number of repetitive entries, I think we should start using the #REDIRECT tag more often. For example, check out the changes I made to the Hill of Tears and related entries via the Recent changes option. Most of the related entries, such as Haudh-en-Ndengin, were just a recap of the main entry. I think using the #REDIRECT will cut down on time, hosting space, and allow editors to focus on quality. What ya think? --Ebakunin 01:33, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

I think this is probably for the best as it gets confusing having so many multiple stub articles and one main article. The tricky part is going to be choosing a primary article to use. Do you use the Quenya name, Sindarin name, Dwarvish name, Westron name, most used name, birth name, etc etc. I'm wondering if we should put the redirect pages in the might cause confusion because you would have Gaffer Gamgee and Old Gaffer etc but at least if people were searching for a specific term and didn't know its other meanings, they could find it alright. Thanks for all your contributions. --Hyarion 01:38, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

Please delete a page[edit]

Talk:Sauron Defeated is spam, so please delete it. - rotemliss (Talk) 04:42, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

Good morning Rotemliss, thanks for the heads up, page is deleted. --Hyarion 08:07, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

Would you please delete Caitimo, it's an incorrect redirect page. Thanks. --Ebakunin 21:24, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

Done. Next time go ahead and add the {{Afd}} template, that way we can work on getting a standard for a deletion process. --Hyarion 21:53, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

User talk:Hyarion vs. Community Forums[edit]

I think many of the entries here should rather have been posted in the Community Forums, as they concern Community matters and not User:Hyarion matters. Mb you should transfer them? --Earendilyon 01:27, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

Good idea. I'll transfer them right now. --Hyarion 11:12, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

Double Check Nasmith Images[edit]

Hyarion, you need to go through all the Nasmith images you uploaded, as there are duplicates. For example, The Pillars of the Kings and The Argonath are the same image, as are Illuin, Lamp of the Valar and Illuin - Lamp of the Valar. Thanks. Unsigned comment by Ebakunin (talk • contribs).

There are a couple duplicates and a couple which are relatively similar but different pieces. What I'm hoping to do is go back through them and state the material used to make them, and which calendars/books they appeared in. Thanks for keeping an eye out. In the future if you ever see a duplicate just go ahead and add {{afd}} to the lesser quality image. Thanks for all your help. --Hyarion 18:55, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

Favorite Race pics[edit]

Don't worry about cropping those images for the Favorite Race templates - I can do them easily and quickly. I should have them done by the end of the day. --Narfil Palùrfalas 11:20, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

Ah that would be great! Thanks :) Once you upload them that will give me an incentive to finish all the infoboxes for the favorite races as I think we only have a couple done. They will look much better with those cool icons than the boring text that is currently there. Thanks again. --Hyarion 11:24, 7 May 2006 (EDT)
Done!--Narfil Palùrfalas 11:37, 7 May 2006 (EDT)
Awesome, I've made the basic templates, but they need some major color overhauls. --Hyarion 12:10, 7 May 2006 (EDT)
It would also be nice if the text was larger - perhaps in a different font?--Narfil Palùrfalas 12:44, 7 May 2006 (EDT)
That's possible. I want to try and make all the userboxes have a standard such as the Star Wars wiki, lets try changing the background/text color, or maybe even adding another sentence, if its still too small then we can make the font bigger or change the font style, though we have to be careful the font style is standard on a good majority of computers. --Hyarion 12:51, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

Browser Crossover Problems[edit]

Hyarion, I do all my browsing on Firefox, but when I recently checked the site on IE I noticed that the _ character does not display in < code > sections. Compare Amrod in FF and IE. Is there anyway to fix the problem? Thanks. --Ebakunin 00:10, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

Uhoh, what has that darn Microsoft broken now, I use FF as well. Looks like your right, we can use dashes for now, which reminds me I need to install the template system that Wikipedia uses so we can use a fancier family tree system; an example at the bottom of this page. --Hyarion 00:21, 8 May 2006 (EDT)
I could just create the family trees and save them as .jpg images, then upload them. I can do that easily, if you wish. --Narfil Palùrfalas 06:52, 8 May 2006 (EDT)
Hm, let's hold off on that for now. I'm afraid if we have them all as .jpgs that would be a lot of work and we wouldn't be able to alter anything. Maybe if we finalized all the trees with the new templates then we could make images for other sites to use or something. Good idea though. --Hyarion 08:38, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

Family trees[edit]

I tried out the familytree template and couldn't get it to work. Has anyone else had any luck with it? Thanks. --Ebakunin 14:48, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

Heh ya, I only halfway got it working so its not just you, there's a few more templates I have to make as its fairly complex. I'll see if I can get it working tonight, I'll let you know when its up and operational. --Hyarion 19:45, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

Tim Hildebrandt[edit]

Hyarion, would you please make the featured image one of Tim Hildebrandt? He's one of the most important artists for Tolkien's work and his passing should be featured. Thanks. --Ebakunin 11:15, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

Great idea, doing so now. I'll make him the featured artist on our Gallery page, just in case anyone knows about it, heh. --Hyarion 13:44, 14 June 2006 (EDT)
Is there any way to make the gallery page better known? As well, is there any way for you to enable one or two of us to change the featured picture each day? Some pictures last for weeks on the Main Page. --Narfil Palùrfalas 20:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)
The goal is to start putting links on the left side to main pages, such as the Gallery, but it still needs a lot of work before we do that. Thanks for reminding me about the Featured Image, what I'm going to do is separate the main page into sections and probably allow anyone to edit the Image section. Though eventually what I'd like to do is have the Featured Image and Featured Article be on the same subject, and we would vote on the Featured Article. The entire main page could use a redesign if you ask me. --Hyarion 21:44, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

Quote Template[edit]

The quote template doesn't work properly when the quote contains a hard return; I had to leave the hard return out of the quote in the Talk:Serpent Lord discussion (before Then Théoden was aware of him). It also doesn't react on the indentation by the use of colons. --Earendilyon 08:32, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

Heyo, just got back from a small vacation hence my lack of edits lately. The quote template is kind of a hack, hopefully we can have more efficient means later on. Try using <br /> for a new line and maybe <blockquote></blockquote> for a tab. I'll look into an easier solution. --Hyarion 16:42, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

Increase in spam[edit]

Hyarion, I am wondering about the number of Spammers at a time. I remember when I first joined you were blocking spammers and vandals daily. Then all of a sudden it stopped. Now it has started up again. Are there like spammer clubs where they all chose to target a certain wiki? Or is it one person with access to many computers? Just curious. --Narfil Palùrfalas 15:24, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

Thanks for bringing this up as I've been meaning to mention the situation. Before we had no spam protection so everyday I was having to revert vandals but then I installed an extension which forces anonymous users who post external links to verify they aren't a bot by solving a simple math problem such as 1+1=?. This had solved 99% of the bot spam to date, but unfortunately as the recent bot was spamming numbers and no links, it became difficult to catch. It looks like the bot has moved on but if it continues I'll look into another extension where we block someone from specifically adding a bunch of numbers. None of the attacks are actual humans against us, they are simple bots that use a proxy server to hide their IP and spam random wikis. Now the funny spam is the stuff where actual humans try to screw with articles, I don't mind those as much :) --Hyarion 21:50, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

"Unfinished" template[edit]

Hyarion, could you please create an "unfinished" template? It should say something like this: Unfinished; this article is incomplete. You can help Tolkien Gateway by completing this article. On longer more time-consuming articles (such as the Fall of Gondolin) I noticed the need, and right now would like it as I work on the Lay of Leithian cantos. By the way, which Tilkal image do you prefer (see the forums for User Awards)? --Narfil Palùrfalas 16:24, 10 July 2006 (EDT)


Hey Hyarion. I just want to say thank you for taking me under your wing, so to speak. I greatly appriciate it! Thank you! -Lord Aragorn1414 14:46, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

No worries mate :) Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions and thanks for all your contributions. --Hyarion 15:14, 20 July 2006 (EDT)


the tengwar text is really neat! not sure how to install it though. No problem about the maps. it does feel like that with the wikis. I guess its the same with alot of subjects, not just tolkien Gimli 04:36, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

English or American spellings?[edit]

This question came to my mind when you spelled harbors "harbours". Should we generally spell things in the English way, since Tolkien was English? Or the American spellings, such as jail instead of gaol, and center instead of centre? I am an American, but I personally don't care, as long as nobody changes my spelling on the talk and forum pages. . . --Narfil Palùrfalas 11:12, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

Heh, yet another thing I have been debating in my head and have yet to come to a conclusion about. Personally I'm probably more for the American spellings because I'm an American and that is the standard for most wikis though their basis isn't on an English author. I had no clue gaol was a variant of jail so it is certainly going to be a challenge for me if we don't use the American usages. While categories/titles are obviously going to be important decisions I think if we redirect the English spellings we should be okay. There is no sense in altering text in the talk/forum and I suppose we can leave the article content as-is, though we should probably standardize it. --Hyarion 11:38, 4 August 2006 (EDT)
I'd say: use the English spelling, as the language we use here is English ;-) So, if article titles are spelled the American way, they should be redirected to the "correct" English spelling (unless it's the name of a company or magazine or whatever). --Earendilyon 05:45, 6 August 2006 (EDT)
I'd just like to comment that at the time that Webster's dictionary (the standard for American English) was published in 1828, both Americans and Englishmen spelled their words in any way they wished, though it is true that some spellings (such as centre) were the most accepted by the British aristocracy. American spellings were actually "officially" established before "English" spellings. And now, I believe that around the world American spellings are more common. The only weight for the argument for English spellings is that Tolkien himself was English. At the moment I am neutral on the subject. --Narfil Palùrfalas 15:28, 6 August 2006 (EDT)
Just don't write "Gandalf the Gray". Rog 09:29, 26 August 2006 (EDT)

Image copyright issues[edit]

Just wondering, aren't we violating any copyright issues with all the images we have? Do/Did you actually get permission from the artists to upload their works here? We do credit them, though. (I uploaded a new Jenny Dolfen Legolas image, BTW... Hope it's not copyright violation. Image:Jenny_Dolfen_-_Legolas2.jpg[former link] Rog 05:49, 24 August 2006 (EDT)

Hello Rog, thanks for being cautious. A large percentage of images uploaded did receive specific permission from the artist but I do not believe Jenny Dolfen has yet been contacted. I believe her site states it is fine to use the images for non-commercial/non-profit which is what we are but we are acquiring quite a few so I'll go ahead and shoot her off an email today just to double check. Thanks! --Hyarion 11:00, 24 August 2006 (EDT)
Update: I finally received a response from Jenny Dolfen and she said having more images is not problem at all as long as we give her credit and keep the proper titles. --Hyarion 11:10, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


Hyarion, On they have some pretty good maps. Maybe we should get a hold of the user and ask him where he got those maps from. Since we have had copyright problems in the past I thought maybe he could help. Dwarf Lord

The tricky part is that Maps are considered infringing on the Tolkien Estate's copyrights even if they are fan created and released for free. Every single site I have seen that hosted maps has been shut down or forced to remove the images unfortunately which is why I'm reluctant to upload any. Even Wikipedia is currently in the process of removing all of their Tolkien-inspired maps. In the future I do wish to contact TE directly regarding this matter but I sincerely doubt the result would be positive. --Hyarion 15:00, 24 August 2006 (EDT)
That's too bad. What a bunch of cheap-skates. Dwarf Lord


Hyarion, I had an idea. What if we all paired-up into groups and concentrated on certain areas, such as the uncategorized pages, and try to get as much done as possible in the different special pages? Dwarf Lord


I forgot to thank you for the welcome and introduction over on Wookieepedia. So thanks lol. About the Royalty infobox, it was no problem. I like to help wehre ever i can; as much as i can. IF u ever need another Sysops i'm available ;) lol. Jasca Ducato 14:45, 3 September 2006 (EDT)

No, thank you :) and we're always looking for Sysops, the more helpful and dedicated people are the more likely they will be 'promoted' (its more of a janitorial job than a promotion). You'll find we have a lot in common with Wookieepdia so you'll fit right in ;) --Hyarion 14:52, 3 September 2006 (EDT)
  • Well i'm getting in to the swing of things over here so it shouldn't be too long until i come near the top of the contributions table lol. Jasca Ducato 15:09, 3 September 2006 (EDT)

Uncategorized Pages[edit]

Hyarion, I have spent most of my time doing categorizing pages and I thought I would let you know I've done around 600 or less of them so now there are 1063 left. Dwarf Lord

Great work! I'll work on them until we don't have any left, it'l go much faster if we work together. By the way, not a big deal but you might consider capitalizing the c in Category, just for standardization purposes, no biggie though. Thanks again for all the hard work, with the categories it will make navigation much easier. You can also just click the signature button at the top of this textbox (second from the right) and it will automatically add your signature and link it to your username. --Hyarion 01:23, 4 September 2006 (EDT)
Your most welcome, and thanks for the tips. My texbox isn't showing up so I'll have to try it later. Dwarf Lord
Heh, sorry about the typo, texbox=textbox, as in the thing you're typing in :) The signature button is to the left of the dash up there at the top. --Hyarion 01:44, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

Elves quote[edit]

I have added a main quote for the [[Elves] article. Could you please correct it if it is incorrect because i cannot remember the exact wording. Jasca Ducato 12:51, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

It might be a quote from the movies only but I'll look it up. For now I've changed the quote to something else as it seemed sad/odd starting the article with a quote about the end of the Elves, a quote about their beginning might be more appropriate. --Hyarion 13:20, 4 September 2006 (EDT)
Yes, the quote is from the movies. I changed the quotes on Men and Dwarves as well. --Narfil Palùrfalas 14:29, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

My Toolbox[edit]

Hyarion, My toolbox doesn't show up any more when I try to edit or create articles. Can you help me? Dwarf Lord

Why in the world do you have to break everything DL? :) I honestly have no clue, it is working fine for me. Are you still having the problem? Tried logging in/out? Tried using a different computer, etc? --Hyarion 01:46, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

Categorizing images more thoroughly[edit]

Just so you know, I have started categorizing the images better. For instance, Category:Images of Denethor is now in the Category:Images of Gondorians, which in turn is categorized in the Category:Images of Men, which in turn in in the Category:Men, etc. It's a pretty big change. Just so you are aware of what I'm doing. --Narfil Palùrfalas 15:24, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

This is something else I've been meaning to do and have had in the back of my mind. What do you think about having maybe two main categories, something like Arda and Real-life (need to think of a better term), then these have subcategories, and those have subcategories, etc. That way it is more like a folder system. This doesn't pertain to only images either. But we could have say simply Category:Images and put all images in there. On a side note to anyone who has a bunch of images they need to upload, just go ahead and email me a zip of them or something and I'll upload them. I've installed a mass-upload script for uploading large files and multiple files, it takes a lot less time. Keep up the great work! --Hyarion 15:39, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

Articles on Merry and Pippin[edit]

This would be better as a public announcement, but my concern here is two articles, Meriadoc Brandybuck, and Peregrin Took. The former is a basic summary (well, I expanded it a little), and the second is two sentences. Both are woefully inadequate. As I've said, it's always the most prominent articles that get the least attention. I'll work on them too, but it's far too much for just me to do. --Narfil Palùrfalas 21:44, 9 September 2006 (EDT)

Concerning "Hyarion"[edit]

Just some thoughts on the translation of your Quenya username. "Hyar", could come from Hyar- "cleave", hyarya "left", Hyar "plough", or Hyarmen "south". I believe you mentioned it was the translation of your real name Benjamin. Now, Benjamin is literally translated from the Hebrew as "son of right". This is generally accepted to mean "son of my right hand", but some rabbinical traditions have it "son of the south" or son of the right side [of the body]", the right in Hebrew culture (as in many others) suggesting strength and power. Another way of translating Benjamin would be to take the Biblical Jacob's prophecy concerning Benjamin his son: "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he devours the prey, And in the evening he divides the spoil" (thus giving us ravenous wolf). Now, Quenya -on signifies genitive plural. Therefor, I can conclude that Hyarion must come from Hyarmen + -on, thus causing Hyarion to mean, roughly, "of the souths". Other translations of Benjamin might be as follows: Yondohyarmeno "son of the south", Yondoforya or Yondofortë "son of right" (perhaps the most correct), or possibly Narmomaita or Maitaráca "hungry wolf". Where did you get this translation, anyway? --Narfil Palùrfalas 18:42, 11 October 2006 (EDT)

Yes the translation is by no means 100% correct and I believe I found it listed here. Great work though, I wonder if we should have articles for names... --Hyarion 19:11, 11 October 2006 (EDT)
Cool site. My name is translated as Mornon. --Dwarf Lord 22:13, 11 October 2006 (EDT)
Awesome, though they have been known to sometimes add an "n" where there need not be one. :p *runs* --Hyarion 23:24, 11 October 2006 (EDT)

Welcome template[edit]

Hyarion, just so you know, you put a welcome template for a non-registered user on a new user's talk page. I'm not sure how to change it. Could you tell me how to work the welcome template again, please? --Narfil Palùrfalas 07:33, 29 November 2006 (EST)

Oops, thanks for catching that. {{subst: w|Hyarion|[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]]}} --Hyarion 11:32, 29 November 2006 (EST)

Merry Christmas[edit]

I would like to wish a very merry Christmas to Hyarion, Narfil, and all the Tolkien fans out there. May God bless you this Christmas, and remember Jesus is the reason for the season and if it weren't for his coming and eventual death and resurrection, we wouldn't have a chance for salvation.

Merry Christmas and happy Hanukkah to our Jewish friends. --Dwarf Lord 22:29, 24 December 2006 (EST)

Thanks Dwarf Lord, happy holidays to yourself as well and here's to another year of wikiing! :) --Hyarion 15:55, 26 December 2006 (EST)