Split
The name Greenway is used only a stretch of the North-South Road. The name of the article is misleading, having Greenway as a generic title and describing the whole route that reach Gondor, as other portions have other names. It's like saying "The part of Europe east of Russia is called Asia". I am proceeding to splitting Sage 11:40, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
- This road really has a lot of names. Greenway might refer to the road in general but only at the end of the T.A. and from the point of view of the Breelanders and the Shire people (who probably didn't consider how far it actually led). Then there are:
- North-South Road might be the best generic title for the whole route but not the only one.
- Royal Road is mentioned twice in a footnote in The Battles of the Fords of Isen (Unfinished Tales).
- West Road / Great West Road was used from the stretch to the east from Isen (UT) and from the same road in Anórien (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, "The Last Debate").
- North Road is twice mentioned in the LotR (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony", J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Ring Goes South")
- Great Road is mentioned in the UT.
- What it comes to the South Road / Old South Road, I would like to know the source for the statement "where [= in Tharbad] it crossed the river and became known as the Old South Road". The (Old) South Road is also the name of the roads 1) to the south from Tol Sirion in Beleriand, 2) the road to Minas Tirith from the south, and 3) the road in North Ithilien from Morannon to the Crossroads used by Frodo, Sam and Gollum. --Tik 15:16, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
- The Old South Road appears in the original General Map of Middle-earth. I am aware of the first 2 South Roads you mention, not sure about the other in North Ithilien. Sage 02:28, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Well, actually the road in N. Ithilien is called the Southward Road (see LotR, 2005 ed., Index, p. 1173). The name appears three times (page numbers: 2004 and 2005 editions), with a varying use of big initials (--Tik 08:32, 25 November 2016 (UTC)):
- Gollum led them down on to the southward road (IV.4., p. 649)
- Seeing this, we turned aside and came by the Southward road (IV.6., p. 691)
- and then suddenly there it was before them: the Southward Road (IV.7., p. 701)
- I kind of think with so many names we should have one article for the lot - as it is a single concept, one road from the north to the south - and describe the names in brief in the opening paragraph and have a more detailed section on the names in the body. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:21, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- These days I resolved the issues (I hope). The main article is North-South Road to which Royal Road and Great Road link. I also created ndividual articles according to the POV of each name; for ex. Old South Road is not a southern portion of the Road, but how Shire and Bree reembered the abandoned road south of Tharbad. Sage 10:42, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Name and content of this page
Hammond & Scull write on p. 31 of their The Lord of the Rings - A Readers Companion after the name Greenway: "The name given by the Bree-folk to the little-used,grass-grown North-South Road 'originally running from Isengard to For-nost' (Index)." Christopher Tolkien who wrote the index for UT according to his instroduction in the index and on section II The Istari in his Introduction to UT at the beginning of UT based on J.R.R. Tolkien's Unfinished index, but we do not know which parts are from CT and which parts are from JRRT. The entry for Andrath in the index of UT reads "‘Long Climb’, defile between the Barrow-downs and the South Downs through which the North-South Road (Greenway) passed." This entry also seems to treat the name Greenway as another name for the North-South Road. The entry for Greenway in UT reads "Name in Bree in the later Third Age for the little-used North-South Road, especially the stretch near Bree.". However, there is no information on which source Cristopher Tolkien based the "especially the stretch near Bree" part of the sentence. It is probable that this is just his personal impression based on the text of LOTR where the name Greenway is introduced.
Names in the narrative and appendix of LOTR)
The name Greenway is used 15 times in the LOTR (once in the Prologue in 2. Concerning Pipe-weed, 5 times in the chapter At the Sign of the Prancing Pony, ince in the chapter Strider, 2 times in the chapter The Council of Elrond, 3 times in the chapter Homeward Bound, once in the chapter The Scouring of the Shire, once in Appendix B in the enty for the year 3018 of the Third Age for September 23. The entry Greenway in the index of the 50th anniversary edition of LOTR (which was written by Hammond & Scull and not by J.R.R. Tolkien unless indicated in [] brackets) has "Greenway (North Road") and the entry for North Road has "North Road see Greenway". The name North Road is used once in the chapter At the Sign of the Prancing Pony and "as far as Tharbad, where the old North Road crossed the river by a ruined town" is used in the chapter The Ring Goes South.
Name in the narrative of UT
J.R.R. Tolkien used the name North-South road twice in his discussion of the name Glanduin in Appendix D of the chapter The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT. From the context of the first sentence "But the great North-South Road, which was the chief route of communication between the Two Kingdoms except by sea, ran trough it (i.e. Enedwaith which was mentioned in the sentence before) from Tharbad to the Fords of Isen (Ethraid Engrin)." it is not clear if the North-South Road only runs to the Fords of Isen or if the text is limited to there because the region of Enedwaith was between the river Greyflood and the river Isen. The entry Roads in the index of UT that was written by Christopher Tolkien is also not clear. It needs to be kept in mind that the kingdom of Gondor extended to the river Isen before the province of Calenardhon was granted to the the ancestors of the Rohirrim (and renamed Rohan). So a road that "linked" the north "kingdom" of Arnor with the northern border of the south "kingdom" of Gondor would run to the Fords of Isen unless it ran to the city of Minas Anor (Minas Tirith) or the city of Osgiliath within the kingdom of Gondor.
Names on maps written by J.R.R. Tolkien or Christopher Tolkien
J.R.R. Tolkien used the label Greenway next to the road between the river Brandywine and the river Greyflood and the label Old South Road next to the road between the river Greyflood and the river Isen on The Third Map of The Lord of the Rings. He did not use any other labels on the road beetween Fornost and Minas Tirith on this map (he only used the label Great East Road on the map for the East Road between Bree and the river Hoarwell with no other labels for this road). Christopher Tolkien used the same labels on his General Map of Middle-earth that was published with earlier editions/printings of LOTR with the exception of adding "The" before Greenway in the label on the map. Christopher Tolkien used the label Great West Road for the road that runs from Minas Tirith to Edoras, but this map does not continue much to the west after Edoras. There was no label for this road on J.R.R. Tolkien's Map of Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor. Christopher Tolien used the label Greenway next to the road between the river Brandywine and the river Greyflood and the label North-South Road next to the road between the river Greyflood and the river Isen on his The West of Middle-earth at the End of the Third Age map that was published with UT and with later editions of LOTR (there is no label for the road that runs from The Fords of Isen to Minas Tirith on this map) and the label East-West Road for the East Road between Bree and the river Hoarwell with no other labels for this road.
Conclusion
In conclusion, the name Greenway seems to be another name for the North-South Road, which runs from Fornost to the Fords of Isen. In the narrative the name Greenway is used most often and the name North Road is used only once, but the name Greenway seems to be a newer name. The name North-South Road as the oldder name of the road seems to meet the Canonicity criterion of the Tolkien Gateway Naming Policy a bit better, but the name Greenway seems to meet the Recognisability and Naturalness criteria better. However, since Greenway can be used as a redirect this is not much of a problem so that the page can be found easily if people enter the searth terms Greenway or North Road. I am in favor of the name North-South Road (because it seems to have been the older name and it can be used first in the text of the article and one can then explain who used the name Greenway later in its history). However, I can also live with the page being named Greenway as it is. I hope I provided a useful analyis for making a decision and for reaching a consenus that most can live with. The entries on The Thain's book for Great West Road and North-South Road (Greenway) and on the Encyclopedia of Arda for North Road and Greenway seem to fully or partly shares this opinion. --Akhôrahil (talk) 15:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that it should be called the North-South Road.Dour1234 (talk) 20:00, 15 June 2024 (UTC)