Talk:Battle of the Pelennor Fields

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Mordor's Army[edit]

How big was Mordors Army does an one truly know i heard on the bonus feature of the return of the king that it could be 200,000 or 350,000 ether way its huge your thoughts Unsigned comment by Sauron (talk • contribs).

There is no exact number for all of the forces, I'm unsure offhand where the 200,000 number comes from but most likely there is mention of the forces possibly being 10 times that of the opposing time, I'll see if I can find a quote as we should include the reference in the article. --Hyarion 18:48, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

It was never mentioned how many there were (save the at least 18,000 Haradrim). But it can be guessed at 100-200,000. I've done an extensive amount of calculations on this, and they have come out just about the same as the purposed 200,000.--Dwarf Lord 22:14, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

Order of Battle[edit]

Just a WiP, add to it if you like. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 21:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Gondor[edit]

Command
Troops

Rohan[edit]

Command
Troops

Aragorn[edit]

Command
Troops

Numbers[edit]

I'm currently planning to add a chapter named "Strength". With will be highly referenced. Note: A company in ME is 500 men.

S. Fiefs[edit]

Books[edit]

  • Lossarnach: 200 (note: of a total of 2000 men)
  • Ringló Vale: 300
  • Morthond Vale: 500
  • Ethir Anduin: 100
  • Pinnath Gelin: 300
  • Dol Amroth: 1200 (700 at foot and 500 swan knights)
  • [b]Total:[/b] 2600-3000

Speculative[edit]

  • Lamedon: 50? (note: of a total of 4000 men)
  • Anfalas: 200?

Minas Tirith and fortresses[edit]

Books[edit]

  • Tower Guard companies: 1500
  • Company of Knights: 500
  • [b]Total:[/b] 2000

Speculative[edit]

  • Tower Guard reserves: 200?
  • Others from Minas Tirth: 2000?
  • Rangers of Ithilien: 500?
  • Survivers of C.A.: 200?
  • Survivers of R.E.: 1250?

Rohan[edit]

Books[edit]

  • Rohirim: 6000

Speculative[edit]

  • ...

Aragorn's Host[edit]

Books[edit]

  • Rangers of the North: 30

Speculative[edit]

  • Lebennin, Ethir, etc.: 2000?

Total[edit]

  • Known from the books: 10.630-11.030
  • Speculative: 6.400
  • Total: 17.030-17.430

--Amroth 13:19, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Sources? --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 10:21, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Changes[edit]

I was planning on adding some changes to the article, namely fixing up typos, giving more accurate casualty estimates, as well as trimming up any misplaced references or inaccurate statements. I was told to discuss the change here. 76.11.233.95 20:53, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, discuss your specific changes. List them here, why you think they're wrong, what you want to replace them with, and what your sources are. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 10:21, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Additonal battle info based off movie[edit]

I was wondering if i could add battle information for battles that happened in the peter jackson movies and add battle information based on the movies. it might be helpful for some readers. consider doing this for all battles shown in the movies Unsigned comment by 173.206.83.82 (talk).

That's what the Portrayal in Adaptations section is for. If you have something to add to it, source it. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:46, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

can i add a battle infobox for these battles? Unsigned comment by Dman (talk • contribs).


They already have an infobox. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 04:30, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

May I have permission to add some additional citations to this page? I saw it in the To-do page and thought I might want to help. Holdwine Meriadoc 18:53, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

It's currently editable for autoconfirmed users and higher. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 08:06, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
OK, but how is that accessible? Sorry, I'm a rookie here. --Holdwine Meriadoc 14:36, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Do you see an Edit button, or does it say "View Source"? --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 15:33, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
I see a View Source, so what next? --Holdwine Meriadoc 15:49, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Then you're not autoconfirmed yet. That usually takes a set number of days and/or edits, I'm not sure how high it's set here. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 16:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Drat. OK. I have a long way to go......... --Holdwine Meriadoc 16:44, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Citations[edit]

I added some citations but am having trouble merging the two citations of The Siege of Gondor into one; could I have some help on that? --Holdwine Meriadoc 02:00, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

I have corrected this. Take a look at my edit to see what I did. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 17:44, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. --Holdwine Meriadoc (Talk/Contribs/Edits)

Who killed the Witch-King?[edit]

It was Merry in the book (1965 edition), not Éowyn. I think, the book must be the source, not the film adaptation, that's only an interpretation and contains more other mistakes - e. g. Glorfindel saved Frodo from the Úlairi, not Arwen. The character of Merry and Pippin is complete false, also Gimli was not a joke-guy etc. Unsigned comment by 162.158.91.51 (talk • contribs).

You're right that the book, not the films or any other adaptation, is the source. However, Merry didn't kill the Witch-King, but only wounded him and thereby distracted him long enough for Eowyn to finish him off, as the article says. --Pachyderminator 16:09, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for your answer, Pachyderminator. But it's clearly stated in the book that Éowyn - who, by the way, did cut off the head of the Nazgul indeed - was then incapacitated. Merry, having cut the sinew of the Witch-kings knee, then struck with his sword between the crown and the cloak. To do so, he needed the sword he had obtained from the Tombs in the land of Bombadil. The sword threw sparks and broke into pieces. This makes sense, considering that "ghosts" cannot be killed with a traditional sword.
It is described in the same way, though in a shorter form, somewhere in the Appendix.
(a) I would like to quote it, but I read it in Hungarian. I think it unlikely that it has been mistranslated. If it has, please copy the original English passage somehow, I would be grateful for that.
(b) As I said, I am talking about the translation of the 1965 edition. Nor do I think it likely that Tolkien changed the story later.
One more thing: I don't want to diminish the merits of Éowyn, who, among other things, was a match for the greatest warriors in spirit and also a very sympathetic character.Unsigned comment by 172.70.246.36‎ (talk • contribs).
Yeah, if that's what the Hungarian version says, then there's a translation issue. Here's a quote from the original:
Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.
But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.
'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.
This shows that Merry struck a blow into the back of the Black Rider's leg, distracting him and saving Eowyn's life, but Eowyn herself struck the blow "between crown and mantle" that slew him. --Pachyderminator 17:54, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Pachyderminator, for your quote and the clarification! So, it's a big translation issue - and I actually do not understand how it could be, because this translation counts as very good, not only according to my opinion, but also in general in the literature. I am pleased that we can discuss this issue. Because "we Hungarian reader" have been wrong on this so far.

I've thought about the inner cohesion and how it works in a "fairy tale". To be able to kill the Witch-King, it was needed (1) Merry and his magic-sword from the tombs, which first took the spell off the Witch-King (so the "Bombadil story" has its own impact on what happened) then (2) Éowyn could be able to kill him. Yeahh :) I'm very satisfied :)

Thank you again for your kindness!

The stabbing by Merry with the blade from the Barrow-downs merely distracted and wounded the Witch-king. The stroke by Eowyn with her sword between the crown and the mantle (that is into his head) killed him. If you read Appendix A, especially about the war of Arthedain with help from an army from Gondor under the command of the crown prince Eärnur and help from the Elves including Glorfindel you will see that Glorfindel tells a prophecy that the Witch-king will not be killed by the hand of a man to Eärnur and in the Battle of the Pelennor fields the Witch-king tells Eowyn "No living man may hinder me", so he probably also has foresight that he will not be killed by a man and he does not realise that Eowyn is a woman under her helm. --Akhorahil (talk) 16:08, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Akhorahil. Yes, I know the prophecy, but it was adapted in Hungarian to the false translation: man as singular of people (in German: Mensch) and not as a male person (in German: Mann). So it was logical, because Merry is not a "Mensch". But now it's clear. To your first sentence: I will read the story again, because I remember so, this sword was special made and the Witch-King cannot be killed with a normal sword. That's why I think, it was a MUST, to use this sword. Ok, I've read the book 20-30 years before, so I could be wrong. But again, if it's not so, then what was the significancy of the "Bombadil-story"? Have the hobbits something learned, earned, or got from Bombadil? (Their life of course, but this part could be "deleted" and the great story would go on exactly the same way...) Or have I something forgotten? I will not persuade anybody :) It's only my opinion, at least until the next reading. The "truth" is more important as my ideas :)

J.R.R. Tolkien used the spelling "Man" (i.e. with a capital M) for the human race (der Mensch in German) and the spelling "man" for a male member of that race. I would need to check, but I remember that he considered Hobbits to be a aller sized sub-group of Man (i.e. they were Menschen, e.g.Hobbit women), because they share the main fate of Man, which is mortality. I think that he wrote in one of his letters that he wrote the chapters with Tom Bombadil, because he wanted them to have an adventure in the was to Bree. The Blade from the Barrow-downs does habe the significance to wound and therefore distract the Witch-king so that Eowyn who was already wounded by him has an opportunity to kill vom as a woman, because it was foretold that he would not be killed by a man. Because of that the Witch-king says that no man may hinder him and because of that Eowyn reveals to vom that she is no man, but a woman. --Akhorahil (talk) 07:45, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Haha... so it was a magic-sword to be able to wound the Witch-king :D:D:D You can't win against this logic :D:D:D But seriously: OK, THANK YOU, for these details, Akhorahil. I have the disadvantage, not knowing such subtleties, partly because I've read the book only in translation and also, there is way more plus infos in English, that would be never translated. :) And sorry for my unprofessional use of words - instead of mantle, barrow-down etc. Your and Pachyderminator's explanations are very much appreciated.