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User name Mord
- So I have been told, yes, but I assure you the similarity is coincidental. :) The original derivation is from Mordred, son of King Arthur, but shortened from long use as an online handle. --Mord 07:53, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Don't worry, my name means many awful things in various languages, cannot be avoided existing so many different languages. But in Tolkien's early Gnomish, mord was the word for 'man, warrior'. --Tik 08:42, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I am sorry but I reverted your recent edits on the Fourth Age articles because they were incorrect. The mention of the SR 1952 exists already in the earlier editions and it is not a matter of the 50th Anniv edition as you say in your edits. Sage 18:56, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- On closer inspection, you are correct. That's what I get for thinking I found a eureka moment at 3AM... --Mord 20:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Finduilas was an adult, as she was betrothed to Gwindor, and most probably she chosed to stay in Nargothrond till she had news from him, or even till he came back, as eventually happened. Or maybe she just stayed there supporting his father (I always imagine Orodreth with low morale). Good question, I had never thought about it. --LorenzoCB 10:48, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- Massive essay incoming... my apologies for the length; but I wanted to get my thoughts out. Reading is always optional. :)
- I agree with your assessment: I do think Finduilas was an adult in the Dagor Bragollach and the elder sister of Gil-galad. However, I don't think I can prove that.
Children of Men might reach their full height [Ed: roughly 20?] while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.]
The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year.
Those who would afterwards become wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children (and indeed this happened often in days of peace); but unless they desired soon to be married and were of fitting age, the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents of either party.
According to the laws of the Eldar this betrothal was bound then to stand for one year at least, and it often stood for longer.
But at whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding.*
* Short as the Eldar reckoned time. In mortal count there was often a long interval between the wedding and the first child-birth, and even longer between child and child.
—Laws and Customs among the Eldar
- In light of that info about the Elven life cycle, the timeline of known events in Orodreth, Gil-galad, and Finduilas' lives (as gathered from the Silmarillion and The Grey Annals is as follows:
- Unknown, unlikely later than Y.T. 1490: Birth of Orodreth.
- Y.T. 1495: Orodreth, presumably an adult (at least 50 Years of the Sun AKA ~5.25 Years of the Trees), accompanies his father Angrod across the Helcaraxë in the Flight of the Noldor. His mother does not come with them.
- Unknown, unlikely earlier than F.A. 20: Orodreth betrothed to his unnamed Sinda wife, perhaps meeting at the Mereth Aderthad. The couple may dwell in Dorthonion with Orodreth's father Angrod or somewhere in West Beleriand with Finrod. If the couple were betrothed in F.A. 20:
- F.A. 21: the earliest possible year of Orodreth's marriage
- F.A. 22: the earliest possible year of Finduilas' birth
- F.A. 52: Finrod begins the delving of Nargothrond.
- F.A. 60: Dagor Aglareb; construction of Minas Tirith.
- F.A. 102: Completion of Nargothrond; Finrod leaves Minas Tirith in keeping of Orodreth.
- F.A. 455: Dagor Bragollach; deaths of Angrod and Aegnor; fall of Dorthonion.
- F.A. 456: Gil-galad's father sends him to Círdan at the Falas for protection. (Note - this event was written in a draft in which Gil-galad is the "young son" of Fingon and connects the sending with the death of Fingolfin and succession of Fingon.)
- F.A. 457: Fall of Minas Tirith to Sauron; Orodreth removes to Nargothrond.
- F.A. 465: Death of Finrod; Tol-in-Gaurhoth destroyed; Orodreth becomes King of Nargothrond.
- F.A. 472: Latest possible betrothal of Finduilas to Gwindor; Nirnaeth Arnoediad; Gwindor captured by Morgoth.
- F.A. 490: Gwindor escapes Morgoth and brings Túrin to Nargothrond.
- F.A. 495: Fall of Nargothrond; death of Finduilas.
- Also in 495, there's a very interesting passage from the Silmarillion:
Now it came to pass, when four hundred and ninety-five years had passed since the rising of the Moon, in the spring of the year, there came to Nargothrond two Elves, named Gelmir and Arminas; they were of Angrod’s people, but since the Dagor Bragollach they dwelt in the south with Círdan the Shipwright. From their far journeys they brought tidings of a great mustering of Orcs and evil creatures under the eaves of Ered Wethrin and in the Pass of Sirion; and they told also that Ulmo had come to Círdan, giving warning that great peril drew nigh to Nargothrond.
‘Hear the words of the Lord of Waters!’ said they to the King. ‘Thus he spoke to Círdan the Shipwright: “The Evil of the North has defiled the springs of Sirion, and my power withdraws from the fingers of the flowing waters. But a worse thing is yet to come forth. Say therefore to the Lord of Nargothrond: Shut the doors of the fortress and go not abroad. Cast the stones of your pride into the loud river, that the creeping evil may not find the gate.”’
Orodreth was troubled by the dark words of the messengers, but Túrin would by no means hearken to these counsels, and least of all would he suffer the great bridge to be cast down; for he was become proud and stern, and would order all things as he wished.
- This establishes that there were many of Angrod's people (and presumably also Aegnor's) who had gone to the Falas rather than Nargothrond, so if indeed Orodreth had chosen to send Gil-galad to Brithombar or Eglarest rather than Nargothrond, he would have gone in the company of kin of the House of Finarfin and indeed the House of Angrod. So, it is much less remarkable that Orodreth would send away his young son to the Falas rather than bring him to Nargothrond, even though Nargothrond was at that time still secret and safe. So that actually answers some of my questions regarding why Orodreth would even send Gil-galad away in the first place.
- Anyway, past that, what can we prove and what inferences can we make?
- Gil-galad is a "young son" in need of protection in F.A. 456, meaning that he must be under 100 years old, almost certainly under 50 years. It's possible that Gil-galad was conceived in FA. 455 prior to the Dagor Bragollach and is literally a newborn at the time he is sent to the Falas, but to my mind it seems more likely that an Elf would be called a "young son" between the ages of 20 and 50 years. So at the absolute maximum ends of the range, Gil-galad would have been born between F.A. 406 and F.A. 456. I consider it most likely that he was born between F.A. 416 and F.A. 436, probably closer to the younger end of that range.
- As for Finduilas, basically the only firm date we have for her is that she was old enough to be formally and publicly betrothed at the time Gwindor left for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, suggesting she was at least 50 years old in F.A. 472 (but possibly much older). If Orodreth and his wife were betrothed in F.A. 20, Finduilas has a possible range of birth dates between F.A. 22 and F.A. 422.
- Placing Orodreth's marriage in the timeline offers difficulties whether early or late in the First Age - if Orodreth married early, we would expect all his children to be born shortly thereafter and thus wonder: why did Orodreth and his wife delay in having children so long after their marriage; or if Finduilas were born shortly after her parents' marriage, why did Finduilas wait until so late in her own life to be betrothed to Gwindor, and why there is such a large gap between the births of Finduilas and Gil-galad? If Orodreth married late, that moots any questions related to the timing of the births of his children, but it must then be considered why he himself married so late in life.
- Based on all previous evidence, the earliest possible birth of Gil-galad in F.A. 406 is before the latest possible birth of Finduilas in F.A. 422 which would heighten the contradiction of Orodreth sending Gil-galad to safety but not Finduilas in F.A. 456; Gil-galad could have been near adulthood while Finduilas could have been only 34.
- If we suppose (and indeed, this would be an assumption without evidence) that Finduilas was rather an adult at the time of the Dagor Bragollach and thus not in need of special protection, that would make her latest possible birth year F.A. 405 rather than 422. However, there is no reason this has to have been the case - a birth year of 422 would make Finduilas a child of 33 years at the Dagor Bragollach, and still a young adult of 50 years at the time we know her to have been betrothed to Gwindor.
- As you say, it is possible that Finduilas and Gwindor were betrothed at the time of the Dagor Bragollach, which would explain her unwillingness to fly to the Havens and mean that their betrothal lasted for 17 years or more prior to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Tolkien explicitly calls out the possibility that betrothals could stand for longer than one year, though 17 years seems remarkably excessive; you could counter that by considering the period between the Dagor Bragollach and Nirnaeth Arnoediad to be a "time of war," and the Eldar do not marry during such.
- But all these are possibilities, hypotheticals, and "what ifs." We don't know whether Gil-galad or Finduilas is the elder sibling. Likewise, we don't know that Finduilas was an adult at the time of the Dagor Bragollach. We also don't know when Finduilas became engaged to Gwindor.
- I consider it most likely that Finduilas is indeed the elder sister of Gil-galad and that she was an adult at the time of the Dagor Bragollach, whether or not she was engaged to Gwindor at that time. If I had to bet, I would place Finduilas' birth in the range F.A. 385 - 405 and Gil-galad's birth in the range F.A. 416 - 436. I would place Orodreth's marriage sometime during the Siege of Angband, in the mid to late 300s. (That means he would have married about 350 years later in life than might be usual, but I think it's more likely for him to have married late than for him to have married early and gone for centuries without offspring.)
- I concur with your notion that Orodreth would be someone with "low morale" - he seems to have spent his life getting bossed around and bullied by others... He did not found his own realm in Beleriand and instead passively received Finrod's old castle as a gift; Sauron drove him and his people from their home mainly by fear rather than force; Celegorm and Curufin usurped the mastery of Nargothrond from him and he had enough willpower neither to drive them out himself nor to punish them after the people turned against them; Túrin commanded Nargothrond to suit his pleasure even when Orodreth wanted to heed the warning of Ulmo regarding the bridge. Poor Orodreth really does seem like the black sheep of the House of Finarfin. --Mord 04:26, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, I posposed to read this and then I forgot. It is a nice essay. I disagree with some things tho. We concur that Finduilas was born before Gil-galad (btw, this should be fixed in the Genealogy section of some articles).
- The main point to everything: do we even know if Finduilas was even born in Beleriand? Maybe I missed something explicit against it, but she could easily be born in Valinor before the Exile (probably being a child when this happened, as she would be the only known exile of the fourth generation). This would solve the problem of Orodreth being married so late: he was already married to his anonymous wife (it's funny that we know the names of the Noldorin wives that remain in Valinor but not of this one). This would also explain the birth of Gil-galad: the Elves did not marry or had children during war times (as explained in Laws and Customs among the Eldar), so Orodreth and his wife could have make a reproduction break during the first centuries of the First Age. However, surely a realm like Nargothrond during the Long Peace would invite Elvish breeding (this is clearly seen in Gondolin), so Gil-galad could be product of the relative confidence. --LorenzoCB 16:31, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Aaand... I forgot Orodreth married a Sindarin lady. Forgot what I said. Must check the sources. --LorenzoCB 16:36, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Orc origin controversy
Both Morgoth's Ring and Nature of Middle Earth mention the possibility of Sauron's involvement in the breeding of Orc-kind - Sauron is credited as having made them in mockery of Men according to an idea of Morgoth. Therefore I thought to add that possibility to the page, given it appears in the late writings of J.R.R. Tolkien and is mentioned in more than one source. No need to write comments in edits that seem to suggest your looking down on at least some users. But if we're at it, I was not about to simply immediately agree with someone who doesn't always necessarily do all their research (from what I remember on the Sauron article). You're not an admin and not necessarily with more knowledge than me. But since I don't like edit wars or to keep others from editing articles that really need editing, there's always a talk page in articles to discuss this stuff. I'll ask on the talk page if my point on Sauron's part in Orc-making is deemed valid and until then we'll leave your edit. I think it sounds fair enough. --LordoftheEarth (talk) 12:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, some sources mention the possibility of Sauron's involvement in the genesis of the Orcs - but not all. The Orcs/Origin article exists in order to deal fairly and neutrally with the issue, giving each source the full attention it deserves without putting TG editors in the position of deciding what is canon (q.v. TG:CANON).
- As for edit summaries: people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You came out swinging with a catty call-out - about an issue about which you were wrong, no less - and now you feign offense. May I suggest you treat others as you would like to be treated and perhaps familiarize yourself with WP:GOODFAITH? --Mord 23:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)