User talk:Sage

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Latest comment: 26 September 2023 by Hyarion in topic Rhovanion

Sage, welcome!

Hello and welcome to Tolkien Gateway. I hope you like the place and choose to join our work. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and we look forward to your future edits. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the Council forums or ask me on my talk page. Keep up the great work! — Hyarion

Tale of Years

It's a known fact that the Tale of Years is full of mistakes, however, most of these were corrected in the 50th anniversary edition. That should be included as well. -- Ederchil 04:54, 30 July 2008 (EDT)


We should really include this in the welcome message, but just FYI: Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style. This is in reference to your use of "LotR" in Gildor Inglorion. -- Ederchil 05:39, 30 July 2008 (EDT)


What published works say that elves are taller?

Ælfwine228 20:58, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

from the Appendices:
  • the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed
Since the writer of the Appendices is a Man, and his readers are also Men, why would he describe the Eldar as tall and not as short?
Some characters, both Elves and Men are mentioned to be tall, and I understand these can be understood as 'relativistic'; for example you can say that the Eldar were tall relative to the other Elves, but still shorter than Men (although this explanation is quite tentative, and plausible only if you want to prove that Elves were shorter). I skimmed through the Silmarillion and saw that while the people of Marach are said to be tall, and while other men described as tall such as Galdor the Tall, most references were about Elves.
  • Ingwë the High King, golden-haired and tall
  • The seven sons of Fëanáro were Maedhros the tall...
  • their sister was Ar-feiniel the White. She was younger in the years of the Eldar than her brothers; and when she was grown to full stature and beauty she was tall and strong
  • [Thingol] tallest of all the Children of Ilúvatar
  • But Eöl, though stooped by his smithwork, was no Dwarf, but a tall Elf of a high kin of the Teleri
  • [Maeglin] was tall and black-haired; his eyes were dark
I don't argue that the assumption that more Elves than Men tended to be tall, can be proben by a statistical analysis. However if Elves are shorter, why Thingol was to be the tallest of all Elves and Men, and not some Man? Sage 05:56, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Well, Tolkien stated that elves and men were at first "of a like size" (that is probably the best description in the whole legendarium for their size difference) in the BOLT2. If this is true, whether they became smaller in later ages or not, Thingol could easily be the tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar, but that doesn't mean that most elves were taller than men. Also, more elves are described as tall in the Silmarillion than men because the Silmarillion was almost all about elves, and the very few central character men that were in it were often described as tall, such as Tuor and Turin, as were many men of later ages, especially of Numenorian decent.

While the elves may not be shorter than men in general, I do not think it can be said with certainty that they are taller. By the way, can we make a real talk page/forum for this? Ælfwine228 17:48, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

I am new here, I don't know the process so be my guest. But as a last note, I also remember in BOLT 1 that Elves are shorter, and I was shocked. Furthermore, I think I also read a comment that this idea was later dropped. Anyway I hope you are aware that the BOLT books take place in a different 'continuity' and shouldn't be considered as guides for the general canon. Sage 17:51, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Perhaps they shouldn't be considered canon, but from Tolkien's Legendarium; Essays on The History of Middle-earth; "...there are Tolkien's latest thoughts, his best thoughts, and his published thoughts and these are not necessarily the same." That is probably the wisest analysis that I have ever read about the world of Middle earth. Ælfwine228 18:31, 3 August 2008 (EDT)


Hi and welcome to TG (I never "officially" got to greet you). Amras now. I know it is not much what you wrote, but please don't do it again in the future when you see that "claimed" tag. I am asking this of you as nice as I can and I can only hope that you'll understand it. I know you saw a mistake and wanted to correct it, but keep in mind that all the Sons will get rewritten by me to the last word in those articles, so all the errors will be fixed. It is just a matter of time. There are over 7000 articles here. I'm sure there's plenty of work for all of us. All the best! :) ~~ Þelma 05:24, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Yes I know you are asking it nicely (I am not of those hot-tempered people who frown at each scolding :P) and I understand. But last time I asked I was told its usage was mainly to avoid edit conflicts and loss of data, therefore it's not always that bad to edit minimally those articles in the meantime (of course there is a problem with larger edits). So my edit was to make sure that you wouldn't miss that mistake and leave it there intact. Anyway I won't do this again (at least with your claimed articles :)). I trust you will do a good work. Namarie :) Sage 06:41, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
My bad for that. I voiced my personal opinion. Like I said, guidelines are too grey. -- Ederchil 06:58, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
Sage - It's a good thing at least one of us isn't from that kind of hot-tempered people :)) If you won't agree with something I'll write in future articles (for various reasons, like better knowledge of the text), feel free to drop me a message and corrections will be made, promise. Ederchil - There's no such thing as "my bad" here. :) Thank you both for understanding. ~~ Þelma 13:52, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Dwarf names

A couple of things... there are several etymological theories about the Dwarf-names in the Dvergatal. Therefore, I think it's important to state the source of the translation, and add others as well. Also, place Etymolgies above Genealogies, and use double ", not '. -- Ederchil 03:49, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

Right away Sage 04:50, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
And maybe it's handy to mention the language as well, re: Arkenstone. -- Ederchil 10:20, 5 August 2008 (EDT)


Hi Sage! I just wanted to draw your attention to here. We are currently discussing the idea of a weekly site meeting. Thanks!-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  18:11, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Individual Tengwar

Since you're listing the Westron names, you should really mention Report from Marquette by Jim Allan among the references. Even if you haven't read it. -- Ederchil 05:07, 15 August 2008 (EDT)


Hiya. Just a note: <ref> tags don't work unless you include a <references/> section at the end (or rather, a <small><references></small> section). -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 08:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Any thoughts? Other than "Expand to include LotR, S, H and UT" and "Add chapters"? -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 12:45, 22 February 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Next Meeting

It is planned that we hold our next meeting on the 5th of April 2009, please inform us if you can attend here.-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  18:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Re: Geia!

Geia sou kai esena! dystyxws den to exw to allo vivlio tou Tsouli alla to xw diavasei... o typos einai kamenos.

Xairomai pou kai alloi ellhnares diavazoun Tolkien kai grafoun so Tolkien Gateway. Kai se eixa dei polles fores sto Recent changes kai den hxera oti eisai ellhnas... nomizw pws sou eixa grapsei ena talk page se kapoio athro sta agglika... mthomas 15:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Next Meeting

Sorry to clutter up your talk page, but just informing you about the next meeting. It is planned that we hold our next meeting on Monday the 13th of April 2009, please inform us if you can attend here. Remember that it's on Easter Monday, not Easter Sunday. Thanks!-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  13:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Xristos Anesth

Xristos Anesth re patriwth! xronia polla!mthomas 08:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Multiple language words

Just a question how to deal with words that exist in multiple languages - Tur, Tûr, Aran for example. What layout do we use? -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Exw dei edw kai kairo oti psaxnete gia contributors stin selida twn Orcs. Loipon, ama psaxnete akomh endiaferomai egw na voithisw giati ta goustarw poly ta Orcs. Oti idees exeis pes mou. mthomas 14:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]


A lot of the tengwar pages require specific fonts, and people that don't have those fonts installed get gibberish. How about a template at the top, saying "for optimal reading, this page requires any of the following fonts"? -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

CE "3"

I see you use the 3 to represent the yogh/ʒ. If you look at the edittools bar ("Insert:") at the bottom, you can see the actual symbol next to the dagger symbol. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Amrod (and Amras)

You’re not wrong in what you added to the etymology of that name (although Ambaráto is the Telerin form, appropriate for Aegnor, whereas Amrod would of course have the Quenya form Ambarto), but unfortunately it makes the messed up alignment of names that was already there even worse. Have a look at what I wrote on the Talk pages of both twins, and see if you can follow what I argue. Feel free to get back to me (or add to the Talk pages) when you got problems. But I think probably the time has come to untangle the mess and reorganise both articles (on the twins). I would be glad of your opinion on that. — Mithrennaith 04:40, 23 February 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Upcoming Meeting

Hi Sage, I was wondering if you wanted to attend an upcoming meeting this Sunday. If you can make, please sign up. Thanks! -- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  16:21, 25 June 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi Sage, I was wondering why you moved Angerthas Daeron, Angerthas Erebor and Angerthas Moria to Cirth/Angerthas Daeron, Cirth/Angerthas Erebor and Cirth/Angerthas Moria respectively? It seems somewhat counter-intuitive to me (especially as no article links directly to these three), and I'm not sure what they mean as subtitles: are they meant to be subpages of Cirth or are you just indicating in the titles that "cirth" can be used as another name for "angerthas"? Would you object if I were to move them back to their original articles? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 15:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

New words

Hi Sage! Sorry to trespass your linguistic ground by creating an article for Mae. Since you have more experience on this field, do you have any thoughts on what I did on the page? --Morgan 16:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Meeting - Sunday 5th September

Hi, Sage! Just a quick message to inform you that we are holding our next Meeting on Sunday, 5th September 2010 at 7pm UTC. Whether you are or aren't able to attend, please sign your name on the here. Hope to see you on Sunday! --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Meeting - Sunday 3rd October

Hi Sage - do you reckon you'll be available for tomorrow's meeting? It would be good to see you there! --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 20:18, 2 October 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A Few Issues

Just a few things I think you should know about:

  • This may seem trivial, but could you make sure that you end your sentences in a full-stop?
  • When quoting, you should indicate such with quotation marks, otherwise it is technically plagiarism.
  • With regards to references, Template:References has to be at the bottom of the article, or else they won't work (see this, for example).
  • Also re: referencing, could you make sure you include page numbers for all publications save for The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion and The Unfinished Tales; in particular, A Readers' Companion has only one pagination so there is no need to omit page numbers.
    • I am using a copy of Nomenclature that was handed to me before the Companion was published, so I can't know the pages. In any case I think it is not necessary, since the Nomenclature is arranged like a dictionary. If that's a problem, then I should reference simply "Nomenclature" instead. Sage 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • There's no need to remove interwiki links (unless they are incorrect).
  • Also, I really must ask that you don't move articles unless there is clear reason, and when you do, use the Move button at the top of the page, and don't copy and paste. The problem with copying and pasting is that it separates an article from its history and therefore obscures its development. Obviously, if the article is spelt incorrectly, is clearly under an under-used name, or uses our old verbose disambiguation system, you can move it without debate, but otherwise it's best to just do a quick message on the talk page (and if no one replies assume it's safe to proceed).
    • I try to separate English-named articles from Elvish-named articles. My personal rule of thumb is that the main article is under the English name; the Elvish articles have a link to the main article, and linguistic/etymological notes. When I see e.g. both Silvertine and Zirakzigil redirect to Celebdil, the best thing I can do is replace the redirects with actual content, and copy the bulk of the text to the one that fits most; I can't put an explanation of "tine" in the article for Celebdil, and I can't create an article for Silvertine only to put this explanation. The 'Move' action was unavailable because the target was occupied by the redirects. I understand that copying instead of moving must cause such issues, but while in the fever of adding etymologies and encountering these obstacles, I confess that the issues you mentioned seemed trivial at that moment *blush* Sage 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Disambiguation pages should only include the actual articles which require disambiguating - etymological information (other than a brief description in the opening line) should be seeded into the individual articles.
    • I fail to understand the reason. Why should the etymology of the name "Hurin" be copied to the five articles of the five individuals called Hurin and not in the single disambiguation page? In similar cases I'd write the full etymology in the disambig page and in the individual articles put a "See Hurin (disambiguation)" link under "Etymology". It seems cleaner and tidier that way. Sage 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Re: categorisation. There is no point categorising articles in categories which don't exist; it does nothing and just puts a redlink at the bottom of the page. Creation categories (and categorising them), is exactly the same as creation (and categorising) articles. (See this for the redlink.)

None of the above is meant in vitriol, rudeness, admonition or patronisation: it's just a few pointers to make sure that TG conforms to the very highest standards to be something we can all be proud of. Do keep up the work, here - you are a very valued contributor. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 17:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Also, be sure to follow the advice given Portal:Locations/Category tree|here[former link] on the Locations category structure. It seems a lot of editors don't understand the structure I put in place, that page should go some way in explaining what to do (if unsure, just ask me :) ). -- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  17:56, 14 October 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi there. Can you please tell me whose maps you used to create the compound map? The basic Beleriand map is obviously the one derived by me (with the cut-outs where the forst labels are in CT's original map) when I first attempted to join CT's maps at Mount Himring. See an earlier sketch of said map on the right. I wonder how that ended up on the web at all... Smeagol 23:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi there. I made this composition some years ago, using elements from various maps I had found online. My purpose was to portray a "sunken" Beleriand with the 3rd Age outline of Lindon, and Fonstad's North. It seems that I used your composite map as a base (yes, the one where you have Himring marked in red). When I edited the map recently in order to upload it, I had a false memory that my base had been Fonstad's Arda map, including the shores and outlines; but now that you made me check again, I saw that the southern shoreline as she envisioned it, differs greatly from this one. It turns out that the greater part of this map is your work. Sage 01:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You mean the one on the right? Where did you find that? The file is almost 10 years old and I had forgotten about it. I later adjusted the southern coastline, as can be seen on the map in my user page. Those were the days before Photoshop :-) Maybe I should get into the mapmaking business again. My clash with the Tolkien Estate is 6 years back, after all. Smeagol 07:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I had a newer version of that map of yours, part of a big collection of fan-made maps I had downloaded from fansites. I think this one was on Sage 13:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ah, that may be. I had to remove the maps section of the Tolkienion when I got in trouble over the maps. However, the maps still exist here. But the map you used is not there. I have lost a couple of maps when I had a hard drive failure a few years back. Smeagol 13:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Elvish roots/stems

Hello Sage. I have a question about how to interpret a specific form often occurring in the Etymologies. For example, for the base AK-, the form *akrā appears, after which follows the Quenya and Noldorin forms. Now, my question is: what is the form *akrā supposed to signify? Primitive Quendian? --Morgan 13:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for the quick answer (for other editors, see User talk:Morgan#Roots)! I hope you don't mind that I have some related questions (I suggest that you answer here, since that makes it easier to follow the conversation):
  1. Which form should we use as title for these articles? ÁLAT- or just ÁLAT? I've noticed that earlier root articles omit the hyphen. Is this intentional? I started to include the hyphens in the articles I just created, since this is how they appear in the Etymologies.
    • I guess the hyphens indicate that the roots are not complete words. Since this is one of the definitions of a root, and all roots have one, I consider trivial such an indication. If you look at Ardalambion or linguistic discussions in the mailing lists, there is no hyphen. Sage 08:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  1. How should we think about the e/ë question in Quenya words? Should the name of the article be, for example, aiwe or aiwë?
    • I am against using the diaereses for several reasons, but I think the TG prefers to include them. A couple of Quenya articles I wrote were renamed by some other editor. In any case, I never use them :D Sage 08:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • According to Fauskanger, "Tolkien often uses the diaeresis (two dots as in Manwë) to clarify the pronunciation of Elvish names for readers of English, but it is hardly ever used in the Etymologies, a work that was never intended for wider circulation." ([1]). Perhaps this is a good reason to actually use the diaereses? Or is it possible for you to explain the reasons against using them? I just noticed the issue in the article on yáve. I found out that the spelling yávë is used in The Silmarillion (appendix) - isn't then this the more "proper" (canonical?) spelling? --Morgan 20:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  1. A general linguistic remark: right now, the standard on TG is to use the past tense in article text which is "inside" the legendarium. However, in linguistic texts (such as etymology sections and "dictionary" articles on specific words) we always use the present tense. Is there a reason behind these different uses? --Morgan 14:51, 27 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]


The dots signify nothing to Quenya itself. Tolkien in his personal writings (and the Elves) did not use dots. Its quite different from the accents which are significant to the language and denote a long vowel; yave and yáve would be two different words, with different pronunciation, and different Tengwar spelling.
On the contrary, the dots don't exist in the language and are of course not represented in tengwar. Tolkien invented them for the published books only to visually assist the occasional English readers to remember that e is pronounced. In fact, all es in Quenya are pronounced but the English (or French, who also has silent es) reader perhaps needs such a reminder. yáve and yávë are not different spellings, they are exactly the same thing, only that yávë is perhaps more visually helpful for the English (or the French).
The reason not to use the dots, besides being not a part of the language, is that it's quite more complicated to write and search in the wiki for yávë than yáve.
And if I may mention, in Albanian ë signifies a silent e, so it would have the contrary effect to an Albanian reader :) Sage 12:08, 29 November 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am personally in favour of the diaereses: this is an English-language website aimed at those who know English - diaereses have a clear meaning in English which I think it is important to maintain. Furthermore, should we be over-ruling the Professor's use of diaereses?
The problem of typing/searching can be solved by redirects. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 01:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree with Mith, I think we should use Yávë, with Yáve as redirects. --Amroth
I'd argue that the Professor used the diaereses with publication in mind, not as a rule-not-to-be-over-ruled; or else such forms would be seen in HoMe. It would be interested to bring the matter up in the forum, what do you say? Sage 20:03, 4 December 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't know if a publication post-mortem can really be conclusive evidence either way of the professor's intentions. However, as you point out, the Professor included diaereses with publication in mind and he never had HOME in mind for publication (and if he did we can't know that he wouldn't have gone through adding diaereses). I think it's a moot point, really.
Furthermore, is it not confusing to readers not so well-versed in Tolkienian linguistics to encounter words lacking diaereses where they think they should see them? (I notice, for instance, that many scholars retain diaereses where Tolkien uses them.)
I know it can be hard for non-native speakers of English to understand, but the diaereses really is a valuable tool in aiding pronunciation amongst native speakers (remember Cate Blanchett's "The light of Erendil"!), and, contrary to popular belief amongst some (non-native speakers) scholars, it is understand by many: words such as coöperate, continuüm, reëlect, zoölogy and naïve as well as names like Chloë, Zaïre, Boötes, and the Brontë Sisters. Notwithstanding the above, I would still support the use of diaereses as a distinguishing feature of unusualness: in English, any form of diacritic signifies "I am a foreign word." - it creates an aura of intrigue and mystery which I wouldn't wish to lose.
It would be good if you could attend the meeting today, I've added this issue on the list of things to discuss. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 01:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi Sage! I just wanted to draw your attention to this question of mine: Talk:ÁS-AT --Morgan 19:36, 11 December 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Second Age Globe

As you pointed out, I completely forgot that Arda wasn't made round until the end of the Second Age. I really like the images you put together for the First Age and Third Age globes as I used in my sandbox for the location portal. Would it be possible for you to create a Second Age globe in the same style? -- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  23:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Boromir and Beornings

Hello Sage! Just drawing you attention to Talk:Boromir#Etymology and Talk:Beornings, where I discuss your edits.--Morgan 01:54, 8 January 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Use of asterisk

I noted that you use both single and double asterisks in the article on Valaraukar. I think the use needs to be explained, either by making the asterisks into links (as was my initial idea), or, as can be seen here Talk:*, where User:Mith is of the opinion that we should avoid the use of asterisk altogether. --Morgan 15:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am not sure on what you want me to comment Sage 09:36, 12 April 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What does the double asterisk (**) signify? --Morgan 20:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The double asterisk is explained in asterisk :) Sage 21:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh, thank you! :) Then I'll go ahead and make internal links for the asterisks (at least for the time being - since there is a debate on wether we should use asterisks or not). (BTW, don't you find it more convenient to keep a conversation to one talk page? It tends to get confusing having to switch between talk pages when following a conversation.) /Cheers --Morgan 21:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi Sage! On this article I removed the redlinks as I find redlinks ugly whilst showing to the reader where our holes are (and giving false hope that those articles may exist); I personally think redlinks shouldn't be created unless you expect to create the article yourself or have a realistic expectation that someone else will do so soon. Are you intending on creating articles for , nique and til? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:13, 22 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi, personally I don't think redlinks ugly and I consider them only 'work to be done in the future'. For example, if someone ever will create an article for "nique", he will have to manually trace every page containing the word and wikify it. I believe redlinks can be useful by the "Wanted Pages" of the "What links here" features. But I respect the different aesthetics about the wiki. Sage 12:02, 22 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I accept that - and indeed agree - so long as it is "work to be done in the future" and not just "work someone else might do at some point"; if an article never gets created the redlink serves no useful function. We have 6690 wanted pages (of which a good chunk are linguistic ones) - a figure which is increasing and not decreasing - so the work isn't really getting done; in the meeting last September I argued, "let's be honest, they probably aren't all articles waiting to happen".
The problem is especially true for linguistic articles because it's such a specialised area there are very few people who know enough to edit those articles and even fewer who are happy to do so, therefore you can't ever realistically expect anyone to ever create those articles. Are you planning on creating links to , nique and til? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 12:23, 22 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well I will have in mind to complete immediately the articles I wikify from now on. I will try to work on complete trees and their related pages when possible. Don't worry about that. Sage 12:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hello Sage! I need help on the following: should "Proto-Eldarin" be redirected to Primitive Quendian or Common Eldarin? Or do you think Proto-Eldarin have its own article (Lisa Star says that it sometimes seem to refer to PQ and sometimes to CE)? I've tried (without success) to find this term in Tolkien's writings.--Morgan 21:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Obviously Proto-Eldarin is not an attested form, but a term originating before Tolkien's writings about Primitive Quendian were published, and before any details about the Eldar vs Avari were known. I think it is safe to redirect it to Common Eldarin. Sage 12:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Etymology of Sauron

Sage, do you have ideas/comments on how we should present the etymology of the name Sauron on Tolkien Gateway? Having investigated it a bit, a complete version is more complicated than what I think could be presented on a general wiki article. As I understand it, Tolkien struggled with deriving Sauron either from Sindarin thaur (PE:17, p. 183; EQS), or giving the name a Quenya derivation (saura "cruel") ultimately deriving from a base THAW (PE:17, p. 184; Letter 297). --Morgan 02:11, 4 January 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We can mention both derivations from saura and thaur. It seems like it is needed an entry on the word saura which seems to have suffered most under Tolkien's revisions, and provide them in its article. Sage 14:17, 4 January 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks - I've added the info to our Sauron etymology section.--Morgan 02:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Letter 427

Hi Sage, I just saw you added Letter 427[former link] as a reference to -nguo. This letter does however not exist, could you look into this and add the correct letter? --Amroth 14:53, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Legendary locations

Ah! I had forgotten about the Last Desert - it's a good addition to the template. I'm sure there are some others I haven't thought about.--Morgan 17:14, 30 March 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hello Sage. As you probably know, I've been sorting out images on TG and making sure that they all have the proper file licensing templates. I'm sure that you will agree that this is a mammoth task; therefore I would like to ask for your help sorting out the images that you've uploaded. Please see below for a list of files that need sorting and/or checking.

You noted on these images that they were public domain, so I've put a PD template on them. However, we need to know the author's name so that they can be categorised and named properly.

The author made those as spontaneous doodles. He is not a professional and doesn't pursue any credit, and as far as I know he wouldn't like to have his name published online either. I wonder if we can support the option to name some files as "Anonymous" Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please check these maps and decide whether you, Karen Wynn Fonstad (her estate or publisher, I don't know), or someone else owns the copyright. You'll notice that on some I've guessed and put on a file licensing template, but please check them.

The maps I have marked with an asterisk are derivatives of (usually) Fonstad's works, therefore I don't have the authority to grant any permission to publish them under any term. I think that we should track Fonstad's copyright holders. Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
this is a collage of maps by Fonstad, Raw and User:Smeagol Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
this is a map by Pauline Baynes, therefore it should take the template that other Baynes' images do. Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've put an unknown copyright status on these miscellaneous images. Please identify the copyright holder and conact them for permission. If you want me to contact them, just ask.

I do believe that it would be better if you include these in your existing work. You have better experience in this and you will do quicker and better than if we shared the work. However I will put notes to help you Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
this is a derivative of collective work by members of the GTS. You can contact them from their Facebook page. Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
the picture was taken from a package of maps by Decipher. Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
these pictures were taken by Dan Smith's font site. FYI I contacted him once but he didn't reply Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I took the image from here. It belongs in the PD. Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
this picture was taken by members of the GTS at Oxonmoot (I think 2002). Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I will try to contact MB and ask him if we can use his heraldry here. Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This was made by the Hildebrandts Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Brothers Hildebrandt - Return of the King.jpg[former link] (NB: I will try to contact Greg Hildebrandt)
  • File:Cave.jpg[former link]
Made by Wenzel, however I don't know what's the copyright and if he gave permission for this Sage 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Many thanks for your help!-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  10:50, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for the info. I shall grow through them at some point.-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  18:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]


See Talk:Buckland. In no primary source does it talk about Buckland becoming part of the Shire (it does for the Westmarch, however). Indeed "Eastmarch" is not mentioned, but "East March" is (only once).-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  18:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Category:Greco-Romance names

Hey Sage. At the meeting just gone we discussed your Category:Greco-Romance names. You may have noticed that I moved it (because I thought that you have made a spelling mistake). You can read the discussion here. As you can see, we decided that it would be best to diffuse the category into "Romanic names" and "Ancient Greek names". Are you happy with this? If so, could you sort it out?-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  21:23, 5 August 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please have a look at Category talk:Greco-Roman names Sage 23:49, 5 August 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I just noticed that your reference in Westlands didn't work as the parameter "X1" doesn't exist in Template:SD. I've changed it to "XI" (Epilogue). Was this correct or did you use another chapter as source? --Amroth 16:39, 23 August 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oops! yes, that's correct :) Sage 19:09, 23 August 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alatar and Pallando

Sage, do you know of any good linguistic analysis of the names Alatar and Pallando? I made a quick search, but couldn't find any -- surely it must have been discussed in VT or PE? --Morgan 20:19, 12 September 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No, other than the speculates that Pallando is related to palan/palla Sage 06:54, 13 September 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Unfinished Tales, "The Istari", Note 6 says: "Pallando, despite the spelling, perhaps contains palan 'afar', as in palantír and in Palarran 'Far Wanderer', the name of Aldarion's ship." This is C.R.T.'s speculation for Pallando, could we speculate Alatar's etymology? Or should we just say that it's unknown?-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  11:10, 13 September 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes we could. There is alata "great", al(a)- "blessed" with atar "father" or tar "high one" and so on. Sage 21:20, 13 September 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Right. Just to make a note of it, Encylopedia of Arda also suggests that Alatar can be interpreted as "after-comer" [2].-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  21:43, 13 September 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Category:Angicised Westron words

Are you going to make Category:Angicised Westron words?-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  19:37, 16 September 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Who made these maps?

They are croppings from this map but since they would take the unknown-copyright tag anyway, I didn't bother to add more information for that moment. Sage 08:35, 3 November 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hello Sage! I noticed that we have no separate page for mutation in Sindarin (like we have for lenition). Do you reckon such a page could be useful, or do you know if we have any other article to which mutation can be redirected? Thanks --Morgan 18:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The "Hobbit" week

Sage, do you have any thoughts about this: can the "archaic" names of the days of the week be said to be Westron, and the later names to be Hobbitish (Kuduk)? I'm just thinking of how to categorize the names according to language.--Morgan 23:53, 15 June 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The names Monendei and so are Middle English and can be considered "Middle Westron" according to this project. The modern day names Monday etc can be considered regular developments in "modern" Westron, but I don't think we can tell how much they are proper, or Hobbitish Westron. Sage 14:34, 16 June 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For example, I am not sure if "Trewsday" was the name also used by the Rangers, Gondorians, Gandalf, etc, or whether they would say *"Treesday". Sage 14:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Thanks for correcting my silly edit at the Wintring article, Sage! :-) --Morgan 21:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Bain pic

Since there don't seem to be any other images of Bain on the site (yet), is there really any harm in keeping the shot from "The Desolation of Smaug" as his 'profile pic,' so to speak? --BalrogTrainer 03:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

According to my own personal understanding I wouldn't use it as a main picture of a canonical article, but other than that there isn't any harm keeping it as a profile pic :) Sage 05:57, 24 July 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Articles needed citations

I don't know if you've ever looked through Articles needing citation, but it contains 246 articles to which the {{fact}} template has been applied. For the majority of these it appears to be on etymologies; with this is mind, I was wondering whether you (perhaps with User:Morgan's help?) might be willing to go through these articles and either add sources or remove/amend the articles as appropriate? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 19:52, 11 November 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]


There is no image with the wereworms as they appeared in The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies in tolkien gateway at all.Someone should upload at least an image on tolkien gateway with the wereworms as they appeared in the third Hobbit film.What do you think?

Good idea! Go on, as I don't have any pictures from that film. Sage 10:00, 1 January 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As i have said, there is no image with the were-worms as they appeared in The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies in Tolkien Gateway.Can you upload at least an image on Tolkien Gateway with the were-worms as they appeared on the third Hobbit film? You can find on Internet.I don't have the ability to upload images on Tolkien Gateway generally, but you do have this ability.

I haven't even watched the film. Find me an image and I will consider it. Also, consider creating an account here. Sage 21:13, 6 January 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes.I already found not only one, but two images:this one and this one.What do you think? Are these images good or not?


I would like to be discussed something generally.Read here. This place, Trollshaws,appears in the First Hobbit film.You can check it by seeing the movie.I am telling that because User:Ederchil removes my editing about the Trollshaws in which i say that Trollshaws do appear in the First Hobbit film.You can see it here or here. Unsigned comment by (talk).

Please check the others's replies to you, their comments and the edits they do to your edits. The administrators's obligations do NOT include discussing and explaining again ana again their points and correcting the grammar and spelling of our edits. Ederchil said he did this for most of your edits but that can't go on for ever; from a point they will start just reverting your edits, and if you insist, they will block you. As for your edit on Trollshaws, you don't add any useful information (just appearing as in the book isn't something worth to be mentioned) and also you have a grammar mistake, as in almost all of your edits (should be "its role" instead of "it's role"). Sage 10:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The IP address of this anon is in Athens. Would you be able to explain in Greek so the user can better understand why their edits are being undone/reverted/amended? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 23:16, 6 January 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes I am Greek.I am from Athens.Unsigned comment by (talk).

In case you don't know it,I have already found not one, but two images about the wereworms as they were depicted in the Hobbit film Trilogy:this one and this one.I found these images a week ago.So, what do you think? Are these images good or not? -- 00:26, 13 January 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oi sygkekrimenes den einai poly kales. Na ftiaxeis logariasmo melous wste na mporeis na dhmiourgeis arthra kai na anevazeis eikones. Sage 11:56, 13 January 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK.I have seen that there is no image uploaded on page Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor about the game with the same name.I have also seen that only a single image about that game is uploaded here on Tolkien Gateway.Can you upoad at least two images (images-posters I suggest) about that game on Tolkien Gateway? I don't have the ability to upload inages in Tolkien Gateway, but you do have this ability. -- 21:47, 13 January 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Den kanw tipota mexri na dw oti diavazeis ti sou grafw. Sage 22:04, 13 January 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I would like to propose something.I would like not to blog me again from Tolkien Gateway if I did something wrong about the image that I just uploaded.What do you say? Gegou

Evil or Servants of Melkor

I am not so sure Sauron and Ungoliant should be in the Servants of Melkor category. Why? They both 'betrayed' him in their own ways: Ungoliant turned on him and attempted to devour him, while Sauron forsook his ties to him before Eonwe (sure he was afraid of the wrath of the Valar, but it's still treachery) and rose as the Enemy of Middle-earth, but pursued his own agenda instead of continuing Morgoth's work. Both Sauron and Ungoliant served Morgoth (the former more so than the latter), but they ultimately had their own purposes in mind. They joined him and carried out his bidding, but at those respective times it suited them as well: Morgoth undermined the influence of the Valar which later proved useful in Sauron's rise; Morgoth destroyed the Two Trees, allowing Ungoliant to feed on their Light and briefly sate her hunger. What I'm saying is neither is a truly loyal ally/servant. We don't even know if Sauron returned to Morgoth after his defeat by Huan and Luthien. He fled to Taur-nu-Fuin, not Angband. He might not have participated at all in the War of Wrath, explaining why he escaped the triumph of Valinor's host and why Eonwe even bothered to listen to his (un)genuine repetance. Also, on the Evil Category page it says: "Articles about evil. Evil individuals, evil places, evil objects, etc. For people, this includes the Dark Lords, evil chieftains, or otherwise doers of great evil. Servants." Sauron is a Dark Lord and Ungoliant is a doer of evil. --LordoftheEarth 10:10, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree with removing the 'Servant of Melkor' category for Ungoliant. It is never mentioned that Ungoliant served Morgoth, they were temporal allies; and what kind of servant tries to eat his master? However, Sauron was faithful to Morgoth and his porpouses even after the First Age (both in promoting the dark cult in Númenor and becoming the new Dark Lord). He deserves to be in the 'Evil' category, though. --LorenzoCB 10:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It was not loyalty that made Sauron promote the worship of Morgoth. Think of his situation. He is a master of Darkness, but he is now something between a prisoner and an adviser. He could hardly propound himself as a God at that time. Morgoth's name, however, and its association with evil could be used on the other hand to great effect. Let's hear J.R.R. himself:

Sauron was not a ‘sincere’ atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda) [...] he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good [...] Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and services of ‘worshippers’. But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time. His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest. --LordoftheEarth 10:29, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sauron's categorization as "servant of M" is not because of his situation on Numenor, but being his lieutenant and minion during the First Age, as all the Maiar who followed him. Sage 18:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Lost Tales

Hi Sage! On the matter you told me early this year, about making a subwiki for the "LT-continuity", maybe we could begin creating categories and templates for Gnomes? You said to make "Lost Tales characters" categories, but many of them exist beyond the LT, but categorizing them as "Gnomes" could be a step further and will remove the anachronical "Noldo" categories/templates that many have. What do you think? --LorenzoCB 21:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Melian <ref name=s4/> [3]

It seems that you did not add text for this reference in April. Is it {{S|4}}: J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion: Of Thingol and Melian"? BartekChom 16:45, 19 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Excuse me, it seems that you overlooked this question. Is your s4 "Of Thingol and Melian"? BartekChom 18:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm sorry, yes. Sage 09:30, 24 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you. BartekChom 16:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Battle under the trees

Hi Sage. I just wanted to say thank you for reviewing and editing my page: Battle Under Tress. (or 'battle under the trees' as you rightly corrected me) I've been part of Tolkien Gateway for a few months now and only made minimum edits to some fairly obscure pages. You editing my page on the battle under the trees has made me feel like a part of a community for the first time here. so, nothing but, Thank You.

Category:Races in The Book of Lost Tales

What is your plan with Category:Races in The Book of Lost Tales? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 19:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

P.S. You've got a non-existent template on your user page. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 19:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First Edition of The Lord of the Rings

Did you see my entries in the talk page of your user page for the first edition of The Lord of the Rings? I did a search for the keyword "edition" in all volumes of the History of Middle-earth that deal with the history of The Lord of the Rings and its appendices and also read the 50th anniversary edition. I do not own a copy of the first edition of The Lord of the Rings, so it could be that a manual comparison between the first edition and the second edition will show further differences. I did not check the prologue or any of the other appendices than Appendix A and Appendix B. --Akhorahil 13:44, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you very much, all contributions are welcome, I am very happy that you find this "collection" interesting. Sage 17:04, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

F.O. 171 or F.O. 172?

Hi Sage! I tried asking this same question on Mith's Talk but got no answer. Hoping you might be able to share some insight.

I noticed that references to F.O. 172 across the wiki have been mostly corrected to F.O. 171. I can't find a reason for this that wouldn't also apply to other Fourth Age years; the note on F.O. 171 states only that the Gondor reckoning of the date of copying of the Red Book of Westmarch from the Thain's Book is F.O. 172 without getting into the why of the matter. Can you shed some light on this? I'd like to add a more robust explanation on F.O. 171 for the discrepancy if possible. Thanks! -- 08:51, 23 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for the reply on my Talk; I'm working on expanding the main Fourth Age article with an in-depth explanation of the difference. Perhaps pedantic, but if we're going to make year adjustments, we may as well make a good accounting of it. -- 09:49, 25 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello again! Just in case you check the recent changes and think I made the same edits again that you just reverted - no, I fixed my previous edits and removed the erroneous information. Thanks again for the fact check! --Mord 23:12, 4 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Maps drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien

Thank you for your excellent work in the Map of Rohan, Gondor and Mordor page. I especially liked that you mentioned that the original map was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien, then redrawn by Christopher Tolkien and mich later redrawn by two other artists for later editions of The LOTR. I noticed that the maps that are on the Website of the Tolkien Estate habe not Bern uploaded to the Tolkien Gateway and there seem to be no pages in Tolkien Gateway that described what is on them and in what details and for what reasons they differed from the maps drawn by Christopher Tolkien and to which of the maps mentioned in the History of Middle-earth they correspond to. Are you interested in doing that? --Akhorahil 08:37, 4 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The primary source of information for the First Map of The Lord of the Rings is the map itself. It can be found with the following link: I recommend to look at it on a tablet computer with a zoom function. The map was not included in chapter XV The First Map of the Lord of the Rings in the History of Middle-earth, Volume 7, The Treason of Isengard, but sections of it were redrawn by Christopher Tolkien with less details in this chapter. This chapter contains a heading with the title The 1943 Map, but not the 1943 map itself. Under this heading Christopher Tolkien mentions that he made a large elaborate map in pencil and coloured chalks that was based on the First Map (of the Lord of the Rings). Most of the other maps that are mentioned in the History of Middle-earth series can be found on the website of the Tolien Estate with the following link:

I found the map with the electronic label MIDDLE-EARTH and the map with the electronic label ROHAN ~ GONDOR ~ MORDOR fascinating. Both of these maps use contour lines for mountains and hills. While the final map of Rohan, Gondor and Mordor that was published in the Lord of the Rings (or in The Return of the King) also uses contour lines for mountains and hills, the General Map of Middle-earth drawn by Christopher Tolkien that was published in some of the earlier editions of The Lord of the Rings uses mountains that are shaped in three dimensions, so that a lot of detais about hills is lost. It would require some work to analyze the descriptions of the maps in the History of Middle-earth to determine which map on the website of the Tolkien Estate Christopher Tolien used to redraw the ones in the the History of Middle-earth and to summarize the main differences to the maps that most readers of the Lord of the Rings are familiar with. --Akhorahil 14:19, 5 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Just want to ensure it's on your radar to create these categories. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 10:00, 21 February 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Also this one which has been outstanding for a while. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 10:09, 21 February 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Men of Harad

Sage, thanks for all your edits on the page, as I realise it was a baffling amount -- again apologies (LOL); but I'm curious could you submit your opinions on the talk page, regarding Angamaitë, Sangahyando, Fuinur, Herumor, Berúthiel, Captain of the Haven, Corsairs of Umbar, and the chieftain bearing the Black Serpent possibly being counted as Men of Harad/Haradrim. I respect your opinion as always ^_^ --BartAllen 16:38, 8 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Y'know there is no "Template:User elves vanyar", right? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:02, 29 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]


When I looked at the history of the edits on the Pre-Númenoreans page, I noticed that the page was created by you. It seems that you used information from Lalaith (i.e. Andreas Möhn)'s article The Indigenious Population of Eriador and Gondor and their Relationships to the Númenóreans and their Allies. I obtained the impression that you did not double-check the statements made by Andreas Möhn in the article by reading the sources that were written by J.R.R. Tolkien that are cited as sources by Andreas Möhn in that article. In my opinion, the articles by Andreas Möhn are not a reliable source and the claims that are made in them should always be double-cecked. I think I recall that you said that you based your edits on the Umbar page on Andreas Möhn's article The third Realm in Exile, which also included incorrect information that was not supported by sources written by J.R.R. Tolkien. Like the Umbar page, where I am not finished with cleaning it up, I intend to clean up the Pre-Númenoreans page and probably later move it to a better name, because the page is not about all peoples that were in Middle-earth or in its west before the coming of the Númenoreans back to the west of Middle-earth in the Second Age, but seems to be about the people that were the kin of the Folk of Haleth (i.e. Proto-Dunlendings or Proto-Haladin). I already started to edit the Minhiriath page and will also edit the Endedwaith, Dunland and Dunlendings page and other pages that are connected with the history of the Proto-Haladin and their descendants. The references in the articles on Middle-earth by Andreas Möhn are very short and either only point to a book or at maximum to a chapter or to entire parts of appendices of The Lord of the Rings (e.g. Appendix A, Appendix B, Appendix E) at a maximum without using any sub-sections of chapters, footnotes or pagenumbers. In my opinion the articles by Andreas Möhn simply compile quotes from the different sources and make speculations without disclosing them as speculations and made additions without disclosing on what those additions are based and without explaining that some sources are either earlier versions of material that was later published during J.R.R. Tolkien's lifetime in a different version or late manuscripts that were not published during J.R.R. Tolkien's lifetime. I advise to exercise great caution when using them as sources. --Akhorahil 14:22, 22 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Free Fair

Hi, I was wondering if you could point me to your source for the “Free Fair” being called thus because anyone could set up a stall for free. I have tried to find it and failed on several occasions. 16:34, 4 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

About Giants

Lest we engage in an edit war:

Sage, the Giants don't just appear in The Hobbit, they actually interact with Gandalf!

So, unless you're suggesting that Bilbo straight up invented Gandalf's interaction with a 'more or less friendly giant' (which could've and would've been easily refuted by Gandalf in 80 years of his friendship with Bilbo), I simply have to disagree with your decision to revert my edit.

Additionally, if you're curious, I'm currently in the process of revising the 'Legend' template, as well as making a more general 'Races' template:'Legend'_template - IvarTheBoneless (talk) 10:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Eh, depends how do we define legendary. It seems there can be more exclusive and more inclusive interpretations. If you think that "legendary" means only persons that appear in hobbit-verse or outside the Legendarium then yeah, Giants seem real in the context of the H and possibly are not totally fictitious. But even so, most of their references are more a matter of lore. The Nameless Things also sound legendary, although they are real for Gandalf and not forming part of some lore, being totally unknown.
BTW, should we consider Imin and co. as legendary, because they appear only in Elven lore about teaching the numbers to elven children?
Just some thoughts about how to define "legendary" so that everyone can agree with it. Do what you want with the template. Sage (talk) 11:29, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi Sage! Hope all is going well over there. I noticed our Rhovanion article's First Age section doesn't have any references. Would it possible to add a citation for at least those new statements? Thanks so much! Hyarion (talk) 13:53, 26 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]